Roller CAM -FE

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Realistically I don't think there is any hydraulic roller currently available that will take a side oiler to 6,500. Last I heard the limit with the BEST stuff was around 6,100 or so on a good day.

There's no performance reason for me to rev my SFT past 6000, except to make noise and scare people. Here are my optimum shift points, but basically I just try and hit six grand and not fall asleep and bounce off the rev limiter.

[Excaliber]

Engine builders don't like flat tappet cams for ONE simple reason, there to much work! All that required break in procedure, who needs it. A hydraulic cam is much easier to break in (and STILL requires a good break in oil) and it's easier to warranty. So why would an egnine builder today want to be bothered with the hassle of breaking in a flat tappet? Simple answer, they don't!

So the easy solution is to bad mouth flat tappets and charge more for a roller. Talk about how you have to use special lubricants and the hassle of valve adjustment and the 50-50 chance you will "wipe the cam". It's a win win for the engine builder, more profit, less work, less worry.

All that bad mouthing is just like what is so often heard from the alignment shop. If you don't buy new shocks (from me) your going to crash and kill your whole family! Oh my, the paranoia runs deep, at the expense of the consumer and the profit of the builder.

Hydraulic's have their place, in Undy's car, I'm not afraid to run the real thing.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Engine builders don't like flat tappet cams for ONE simple reason, they're too much work! All that required break in procedure, who needs it. A hydraulic cam is much easier... )

Ernie, that's true, and Brent is on record basically taking that very position. In fact, I remember one goofy thread where he essentially said he would not install a SFT in a customer's block for any reason and for any amount of money. But remember Ernie, this is just your and my hobby -- just something to waste time on and have a little fun. Others on here actually have to make a living at this stuff (and some don't even have their Cobras anymore). You have to at least be mindful of that -- if I had to make my living doing something that was somehow related to the crap that goes down on this forum I'm sure I would be whistling a different tune....

[blykins]

First of all, let me say that roller cams do not require a break in oil.

Second of all....I'll never hear anyone say, "I guarantee you that I will not wipe the lobes down with a flat tappet cam on a fresh startup." That's for a reason.

Who wants to go through the rain dance that you have to go through? You're absolutely right Ernie. Builders don't want flat tappet cams because they don't want to take even a remote chance of wiping the lobes down and having to disassemble, clean, reassemble, and try again. When you wipe a lobe down, metal gets scattered through the entire oiling system. Bearings have to be replaced....possibility of scarred crank journals, oil pickups are full of shavings, pumps, etc. It's a mess.

Let me add that there is NO PERFECT WAY of breaking in a flat tappet camshaft. Drop out the inner springs, use the Joe Gibbs breakin oil, run 1.2RR rocker arms, make the engine fire on the first crank....you still cannot guarantee that the cam will survive.

Save the hassle, spend the $300-400 and go roller. Gain horsepower. Lose the risk of engine damage. You flat tappet guys just don't have an argument here. If you need the sound that bad, put a baseball card in the wheel spokes.

You may have a bad taste in your mouth from a solid roller....but it's only because you used the wrong lifters....

What if a builder upgraded you to a roller cam for free? Now what argument would you have?

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Engine builders don't like flat tappet cams for ONE simple reason, there to much work!

I Can't find the post but Keith went into great detail as to his reasoning. It was comebacks and a high rate of failure, even after the dyno controlled break-in. It's that lone reason that brought me to the hydraulic roller. Other than the parts, the labor is actually less with the hydraulic roller (no lifter/cam lube prep, no removal of inner springs on hi-lift profiles, no meticulous "on dyno' break-ins)

Originally Posted by Excaliber

(and STILL requires a good break in oil)

Nope, nada, no-break-in oil requied, unless you're one of the fanatics who still subscribes to the non-detergent, single weight, break-in oils for ring seating.

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Hydraulic's have their place, in Undy's car, I'm not afraid to run the real thing.

Yep, that's the perfect place. Never liked adjusting valves in the 60s and 70s, still don't like it today.

Did I mention that a 100% aluminum motor, with all the heat related material growth is much better suited to a hydraulic (flat or roller) cam anyway. There's a narrow temperature band where the SFT cam will have the "right" clearance. I sure hope I'm not starting another one of them aluminum vs iron block armchair debates

[Excaliber]

A roller mioght be my choice in time, like I said, I'm still considering my options. But I'm not afraid of installing a flat tappet and am confident it will live. They've been around a long time, it is proven technology. It's all about making the right choices for the parts and proper breakin procedures. Yup, a lot more work, more risk, more maintenance.

If I was an engine builder, I'd highly recommend a roller to MY customers as well. But I wouldn't do it using scare tactics and I'd install what ever cam the customer wanted.

On the street I rarely shift above 5,500-5,800 rpm, which is within range of a roller. On the track I like to shift at about 6,500 rpm. I love that high end and the feel of the motor that just keeps pulling! I actually LIKE the idea that I have to check my valve clearance from time to time, keeps me in touch with my motor. I guess I'm a dinosaur too.

It's frightening that you guys would install a hydraulic roller without breakin' lube on the cam and the rollers, by the way! As well as break in additive for the motor in general.

[patrickt]

I think Undy is right on all of those points. Including the all-aluminum jobs being lashed cold to almost no lash at all (that was a recent thread as well). It's getting harder and harder to make a case for SFT -- but we still have that distributor gear thing.

[RodKnock]

HFT or SFT = Dial-up Internet access. Ernie, join the modern era.

Why is there a need to rev beyond 6,000-6,200 RPM in an FE? Most "run-of-the-mill" builds from FE Specialties, Keith Craft, Gessford, Barry R., etc. make 600-650 HP at around 5,600-5,800 RPM with an off-the-shelf carb. If you want a little bigger, then go solid roller.

[undy]

With Pat's approval I'd better quit while I'm (almost) ahead..

Brent, did ya write this one down for "Team Hydra"??

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by undy

With Pat's approval I'd better quit while I'm (almost) ahead..

Brent, did ya write this one down for "Team Hydra"??

Does putting an iron gear on the end of a roller eliminate the distributor gear issue? Or does it just create new problems of which I am unaware?

[Excaliber]

Oh I been there with the solid roller, no thanks! And perhaps I'll run flat tappet and spend the money I save on other things, or not. It's good to have choices.

[undy]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Does putting an iron gear on the end of a roller eliminate the distributor gear issue? Or does it just create new problems of which I am unaware?

Per Keith's advice, I went with a Ford Motorsport cast iron ditibutor gear. I've got 6K miles on the motor and the dizzy gear still looks brand new.

[Jamo]

Undy...Keith was right on the money for a hydraulic roller cam fitment (obviously, since da man's a guru)...those cams come with hardened steel on the cam gear, so an iron gear won't eat them up.

The problematic fitment is the solid rollers for FEs...unlike more common installations like CSB and CBB, the cam grinders don't have hardened steel for the cam gear on solid rollers (or maybe they're getting to it), so a sacrificial distributor gear needs to be used to protect the more asspensive cam...which is where bronze cam gears come from. Production-wise, the solid roller market for FEs is relatively small. Again, Rick has been using a poly-something distributor gear for a solid roller fitment which shows extreme promise (I haven't heard him yell about breaking it yet), but it's still relatively a new approach in the bigger scheme of things.

So...hydraulic rollers...no problemo. Solid rollers...ya takes your chances. I have a collection of worn bronze gears on the shelf behind me from my solid roller days...make for unusual (and knife-sharp) paper weights.

[blykins]

Dave,

I think we can chock it up.

However, I will say that I'm also pro-solid roller. I love solids and hydraulics just the same, they each have their place and application....just as long as they're not flat tappet.

[blykins]

BTW,

Patrick, are you thinking about swapping? Wake that motor up!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Patrick, are you thinking about swapping?

Only if it wipes a lobe.

[blykins]

I wouldn't put it past one.....they're sneaky like that.

[undy]

I must say though....

If I was to build a road-race only buggy that isn't even street legal, here's what the FE powerhouse bill-o-fare would be...

Pond aluminum block (4.25 finished bore), custom light weight 4340 moly stock stroke Lunati crank (BBC rod journals), a set of BBC Forged titanium rods, Arias custom light weight 11.5 to 1 pistons, KC's stage III Eboks w/ 2.30" Titanium intake valves. I still like the Ersons on the Eboks. To fuel the thing I'd have a ported Victor and a race prepped 1000HP. Valve opening would be courtesy of a nasty Solid Flat Tappet, say... about 270/280 duration @ 0.50 and .670/.680 lift. Yep, that would about do it... well, that and about 35 grand in build costs ....if wishes were to come true.

But!!! For the street it's me 'n Team Hydra..

Pat, c'mon over to the Dark Side, talking trash with z-e-r-o lash..

[Jamo]

Undy...those are basically my cam specs.

[undy]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Undy...those are basically my cam specs.

great minds??