Roller CAM -FE

[PANAVIA]

So we have seen a ton of roller-rocker FE's harland sharp, sino-ebay deals and others, -

- however I wanted to hear experiences with *roller cam* converted FE's -- who have you used, was it worth it , what did you like >?

Thanks Guys !

--Steve

UPDATE: Spoke tih Comp-Cams Ford FE specialist, we have a custom Hyd Roller on the way , and is should behave close to the C8AX-6250-C Spec from 1968 428 CJ's.

(Cant wait !!!)

[RICK LAKE]

PANAVIA Steve not sure witch one you are talking about. Only a couple of guys are running camshaft roolerbearing motors. These are not really street motors. Big power and High cost.
Roller camshafts, alot of guys are running in there motors. I am running a small crane shaft with a .587"-.607" lift on a very streetable 482 motor. Real power numbers are little over 600 ft of torque at the crank and 560's HP. The motor is all done by 6,200 rpms. Idle is smooth. KCR has about 20-30 custom grinds for camshafts on jusy FE motors. They would be one of the guys to MATCHUP a camshaft to your motor, trans and rearend ratio. You have to know that depending on weather you run a hydro lifter or solid lifter, the price is high. Cam shaft about $300.00 lifters in the $400.00's. Custom length pushrods, $200.00. With camsshafts bigger is not always better. If you are racing, that's one thing, but for street, no. Too many guys have gone to smaller camshafts and are very happy with the car overall and giving up 50-70 HP in the top end.
RPM range,a hydro lifter motor even with great valve springs is all done at about 6,300 rpms. The lifters pump up. Solid roller lifters, the sky is the limit or valve spring float which every somes first. I limit my stroker motors to 6,200 rpms, way too much heavy metal spinning around in the bottom of that block. IMO a roller camshaft will make more power, have a wider power band, and require about the same maintainance as a hydro motor with valve lash need ing to be done or checked about twice a year. This depends on how much you beat your motor and car.
Side notes, if you go with a roller cam shaft, Don't let the motor idle for long amount of time. IMO there is not alot of oil spraying around to lube the camshaft and roller wheels in the lifters unless they are pressure fed. Windage tray is also a question mark with this kind of camshaft, unless some custom oil modifcations are done to the lifter bores to help direct oil to the camshaft, roller wheel contact point, I might not run a windage tray. This applies for scrapers of the crankshafts too.
I am putting a custom KCR camshaft in my 498 motor that will be in the .640" lift range with hydro lifters. This motor will have beehive springs and a high rpm range to many be 6,500 rpm. IMO hydro roller camshafts are the way to go for anything but looking for max power and 7,000 rpm range. Rick L.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by PANAVIA

I wanted to hear experiences with *roller cam* converted FE's -- who have you used, was it worth it , what did you like?

Steve, I don't think there are any real issues with hydraulic roller camshafts in an FE. Now solid rollers may be a different story. I know back five or so years ago there were durability issues with solid roller cam setups in an FE -- they just weren't lasting very long (the lifters, that is). Most fellas were only seeing a few thousand miles as I recall. Obviously hydraulic lifters see plenty of oil, and there were threads discussing whether it was smart to block off the galleys (like you traditionally do with a solid cam) with solid roller lifters. Some said leaving them open was smarter (some say that though on just regular old solid flat tappets as well). I kind of remember, although I may be imagining it, that there have been improvements in the solid roller lifters over the last five years -- so if you see a thread from 2002 over in the FE forum complaining that their solid roller lifters only lasted three thousand miles you might want to read something more recent.

EDIT -- I think the distributor gear problems have been overcome. I haven't heard any problems on that in a while, but maybe people are just in the habit of changing them out after so many miles? Not using an iron gear applies to both hydro and solids -- but, you know, pulling the distributor to press on a new gear is not a big deal (especially if you just take the new gear and distributor to a machine shop and tell them to do it). Anyway, those were the two issues that I remember: 1) Durability of the lifters; and 2) Durability of the distributor gear.

[decooney]

Hey Steve,
You might check with Tom Lucas at FE Specialities, just up the road here in Sac. He's done several conversions for original FE blocks, hydraulic/solid roller setups. Many coversations over many years about this with him...

I was one of his diehard (solid lifter flat tappet FE) customers who never converted, all is still going well, but every time I see him he ribs me a bit about not catching up with modern technology and benefits. Tom's dialed into various research and testing groups and has helped a few friends on these kinds of decisions.

On the performance side of the equation, most folks here would not even believe what they just got from the dyno this week on his latest normally aspirated FE build with some recent developments - numbers I've not seen before from an FE. If I wrote it here, not too many would believe it - so I won't. Maybe Tom will come along later and post something. He is at 916-339-0427

[PANAVIA]

Keep the info commin' -- 4pipes gave me some info this AM as well--

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by PANAVIA

Keep the info commin' -- 4pipes gave me some info this AM as well--

I was watching one of the car shows on SpeedTV this afternoon, like "Muscle Car" or their "Power Block" or something, and they were putting in a new MSD distributor in a 460 with a new roller cam and they put on a new Comp Cams composite distributor gear and said that, unlike bronze, it will never wear out. That's an exact quote -- yep, I guess a hundred years from now it'll still be as good as new. Now I'm just repeating what the TV show guy said, I don't know, so no flames please. After all, I still run the same type of stuff they were making 40 years ago.

[4pipes]

Steve, my Crower cam is part number 16462 Street Roller Performance Level 4, requires kit #84524 which specifies lifter, springs, retainers, and seals. This cam and kit are good for 7k rpm in an FE. All are viewable at:

http://crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml


FYI, the tan smoke you saw from my exhaust during warmup was leaded race gas deposits on the inside of my pipes.

Hope that helps.

[PANAVIA]

Ok, so spoke to the guys at comp cams at legnth, and i have one of their prototype cams coming that is a hydraulic roller version of the C8AX-6250-C cam along with their new roller hydraulic lifters.

working on installed spring height and other details.

I am thinking the engine should be assembled and running in 20-30 days and in the car say within 30 days , so an early august streetable date looks plausible.

--if i can get the time to work on it ( HAHAHAHA)

Steve

[FWB]

i have a solid roller from comp cams, using T&D rocker set up. its in the 671 lift range.
i like it. the lifters have a low life expectancy. i was told to change them at 10,000 miles. got 5k on it now. it revs like a small block.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FWB

I was told to change them at 10,000 miles. got 5k on it now.

That's a PITA -- do their new roller lifters have extended life?

[FUNFER2]

If,......i remember correctly. Keith said that CompCams has a newer lifter for mechanical roller cams, that have a oil hole so it receives oil. He said several of these motors now have several thousands miles with no report of failure. I'll have to check with him or CompCams

[FWB]

uh, i believe all solid rollers have a finite life. the roller pin wears and it may break.
i do have the oil hole lifters in fact i am oiling up the pushrods for the T&D rockers.
the hydraulic rollers may be different i don't know, but the solids will have the mileage restriction. i usually put maybe 2k on per year so lifters every 5 years isn't a problem.
this stuff doesn't phase me i tear apart my motor just to check things anyway. so dropping in a set of lifters when changing intakes or gaskets is quick.

[FUNFER2]

I agree. The only thing I hate, is the extra work you have to do on a FE vs a Chevy. But that's ok,.....it's a correct motor for the car and wouldn't have it any other way. (one guy I heard has a Hemi)

[PANAVIA]

KEEP IN MIND : Hydraulic Roller Lifters say it with me ---HAAAYYYY_DRAAAAUUUUUL---LIIIIIICKKK....so I am hoping for an extended life from them. --Steve

[FWB]

Originally Posted by PANAVIA

KEEP IN MIND : Hydraulic Roller Lifters say it with me ---HAAAYYYY_DRAAAAUUUUUL---LIIIIIICKKK....so I am hoping for an extended life from them. --Steve

"the hydraulic rollers may be different i don't know," was my response wise a$$. maybe you could refer to YOUR question.


"- however I wanted to hear experiences with *roller cam* converted FE's -- who have you used, was it worth it , what did you like >?"

put down the pipe for a second.

[RICK LAKE]

patrickt Pat 1/2 of the reason hydros roller last longer is because of the lash load on the lifter all the time. The wheel has consist contact with the cam shaft, even on the down side of the lobe. The oil acts like a cushion to help extend the life. With a solid camshaft setup roller or tappet you have a .018"-.025" of space that is either between the lifter and the pushrod or the pushrod and the rocker adjuster. This clearance is what causes the roller lifters and solids to wear out. Oiling does have some to do with this. If you put a rev kit in the motor you remove the lifter bouncing over the surface of the camshaft lobe. this will stop the beating of either the bearing inside or the wheel. The other side of the problem is how much spring pressure is need ed to control the lifter at say 6,500 rpms?? I am looking at using the weakest spring for a rev kit and seeing where this will go. If this works, you can run a liter valve spring and get the same or higher rpms without floating or hurting the valve train or motor.
The other problem, IMO is oiling of the system. IMO when a motor is running at 2,000 rpms there is enough splashing inside the motor for the camshaft and lifter contact points, (MAYBE) depending again on the block. By adding a small groove to each lifter bore or in some cases the new lifters have a groove in the outside case, add more oil to the contact point of lifter and lobe. The idling of solid lifter motor is what kills there life. I have some ideas for my other motor that I will get the test to see if my theories are right or not. I am staying with a hydro lifter motor and looking at a rev kit.
With the amount of power hydro roller motors are making, unless you are looking for every last rpm in a motor, I just don't see the need for 7,000 rpms on the street. You build a car with the right gearing in both rearend and trans, have a motor with a large torque power band, it will live twice as long, require less maintainance, and is not extended beyond there limits of this FE block. Just my 2 cents.

[patrickt]

Rick -- Go over in to the "Lounge" and read my rant on GM and replacing the multi-function switch. It's under the thread "I Now Know Why GM is Going Bankrupt."

[decooney]

What's amazing to me about this thread is many have been chatting right here on ClubCobra for at least eight to ten years solid back and forth (look back through threads) about FE hydraulic vs. solid lifter setups, related problems, advancements, here we are approaching 2010 and vendor-x now coming out with yet another new redesigned prototype roller lifter with oil hole/groove technology for FEs to try and get it to last a little longer and work better.

One would think with all the modern materials, machinery, computer advancements, and great minds all linking up now through the internet a simple and long lasting (solid or hydraulic) FE roller cam and lifter design could be developed and realized.

It would be create to hear feedback from folks on Clubcobra about how many trouble-free miles they have gone with their x-type FE roller or solid cam in their Cobras to help weed out the successes from the failures. Many times we tend to hear more about the failures, which makes it more difficult to evaluate.

Hopefully development and technology is getting better for FE roller cams/lifters by now, or at least within this decade.

[Eljaro]

Keith build a 482 Aluminum motor for me , using a Pond block and I chose hydraulic Roller lifters and cam to go with it. All I had to do was put in stronger springs as per Crane (the maker of the lifters) recommendation, to keep up with the heavier weight of the lifters. So far very good response, my limiter is set at 6300 rpm, and I regularly rev up to the limit.
The aluminum flywheel and the Webers also help to make this engine very, very lively.
I did have a solid lifter and cam before in my 427CO , and had two times the pushrods break, once ruining a rocker and the other the cup fell inside the engine and was banging around inside hitting and damaging a cam lobe, a lifter and cylinder walls in the process.So the hammering Rick talks about is a fact and can cause breakage sooner or later.
I can only recommend roller hydraulic after those experiences. Engine sounds smooth and is less noisy too.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by decooney

What's amazing to me about this thread is many have been chatting right here on ClubCobra for at least eight to ten years solid back and forth (look back through threads) about FE hydraulic vs. solid lifter setups, related problems, advancements, here we are approaching 2010 and vendor-x now coming out with yet another new redesigned prototype roller lifter with oil hole/groove technology for FEs to try and get it to last a little longer and work better.

Remind me again why a roller is better than a solid, flat tappet cam?