Which block to chose ?

[MrBuffet]

Hi all,

The high command (the wife) has finally succumbed to the constant nagging from my daughter, myself and grandpa (in that order) to allow us to undertake a 3-generation family build of a FF MKIII Roadster for street use (target: low to mid 400's HP, and about 450 torque, no drag, and only very seldom track usage).

The plan is to do a reasonably era correct build, but with modern upgrades in terms of heads, pistons etc. as well as put in a A/C system, and a nicely shaped luxury style interior.

The mechanical parts of the build is something I'm completely comfortable with, and since my dad is a wood ship model builder I'm sure we'll end up with nice inlaid panels etc.

I have build engines (albeit European ones) in the past, and hence feel reasonably comfortable putting the engine together -- that said I have little era experience with American blocks -- hence I'm turning to you lot to give me some input on block selection.

Up front I have to state that I *think* I need a 60's code to be on the block for registration purposes. If I understand it correctly a kit with an original 60's engine in it, then the car will be registered as a e.g. 1966 -- this makes it *a lot* easier to export e.g. to Europe, which I likely need to do at some point. If someone could validate that I would be much obliged.

Now in terms of engine choices, I gather that the era correct blocks are the 427 SO, the 427 TO and the 428. In terms of pricing I'm getting a feeling from reading forums etc. that a 427 SO is insanely/prohibitly expensive, the 427 TO block reassuringly/moderately, and the 428 something that one can actually pay for. I also understand that the 427 TO in some cases can be re-drilled to a SO.

so in short I'm a little lost here, and my question is thus --

1) Is it worth the cost going for a 427 block, and what would my choices be (e.g. Original, Genesis block with 1966 stamp etc.)?

2) Do I need to worry about TO vs. SO for street use?

3) Is the 428 just as good for street use as the 427?

4) what kind of cost should I expect to pay for the different (original) blocks, 427SO, 427 TO and 428 respectively

5) what specific things outside over bore should I look out for if I buy an original block?

6) are any of these blocks compatible with / have provisions for aftermarket A/C systems?

7) I have also talked to some people who have urged me not to go the FE route and get a 351 sportsman or 351 BOSS block instead, and then if need be bore / stroke it to 427. Understanding that it would break the era correctness, and maybe also have a negative effect on the ability to get it registered as a e.g. 1966.?

As you might gather, I'm in a bit of a undecided state, hence any thoughts or inputs, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

MrBuffet

[brettco]

A 390 or 428 should be more than enough power and much cheaper to build than any 427 build. A FF is far enough from original that a 427 block in it would be a little overkill and would cost as much or more than the car. Hope that helps Brett

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by MrBuffet

7) I have also talked to some people who have urged me not to go the FE route and get a 351 sportsman or 351 BOSS block instead, and then if need be bore / stroke it to 427. Understanding that it would break the era correctness, and maybe also have a negative effect on the ability to get it registered as a e.g. 1966.?

Before spending a lot of time on trying to find a 1965-67 block, I'd get the straight facts from your local/state DMV. Second and third hand info can be costly when trying to register one of these and you could wind up wasting a bunch of money when your state would have just relied on the data on the MSO (for example) to register it as a '60s-era car.

When you say you are building a Factory Five with a luxury-shaped interior and then adding AC, you will have long-since broken any notion of era-correctness (in my humble opinion), so why waste time/money/energy/weight on a big old clunky hunk of cast iron FE?

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Before spending a lot of time on trying to find a 1965-67 block, I'd get the straight facts from your local/state DMV. Second and third hand info can be costly when trying to register one of these and you could wind up wasting a bunch of money when your state would have just relied on the data on the MSO (for example) to register it as a '60s-era car.

When you say you are building a Factory Five with a luxury-shaped interior and then adding AC, you will have long-since broken any notion of era-correctness (in my humble opinion), so why waste time/money/energy/weight on a big old clunky hunk of cast iron FE?

I concur. A nicely done 351/408 will make all the power you can use. Remember, FFR's are LIGHT!

And, as far as the registration in your State, what State are you in?

[Dwight]

it would help if you would fill in your signature and tell us where you live,etc.

My friend Coach Mike bought a 428 from Keith Craft that was stroked to 461. Great motor and very streetable. Keith built the motor cheaper than we could have and it was dyno'ed and has a warranty. Oh, and it has 601 hp and 619 tq.
There are several FE motor builders on this site that can sell you a great FE for your Cobra. Call them.


I drive a small block but I love a big block Cobra

I have a couple of Cobra buddies that let me drive their FE Cobras.

If you want a big block, that's what you should buy. It's expense to change later. You never regret an FE in your Cobra.

Dwight

[tnlprt]

which do you want I have 2 SO bare blocks
I have a complete Tunnel port SO
I have a 390 short block or complete engine your choice
look in the classified for for all three
http://www.clubcobra.com/classifieds...uct=2315&cat=6

[elmariachi]

Realizing that none of us really answered your questions:

If you read around these forums, you'll find names like Keith Craft, Barry Rabotnick and and George Anderson, all of whom build LOTS of Cobra engines. They build turn-key engines but also sell parts and if you are polite, will generally offer very sage advice because they don't want to see anyone in this sport make a mistake or waste money. After a few phone calls and lots of reading, you'll get a thorough sense of what each engine will cost you to buy and or build, and which one might be best for you. Those guys are a great source for reliable and hard-to-find parts.

I am less than a year with my FE-powered Cobra, but here is what I have learned, with regard to your specific questions:

1) Is it worth the cost going for a 427 block, and what would my choices be (e.g. Original, Genesis block with 1966 stamp etc.)? You must decide how important it is to you to have an FE powerplant. Abstract feelings like nostalgia, ego and bragging rights become monetized very quickly with an FE, especially a virgin side oiler. There are a decent supply of original used blocks out there, a few NOS blocks and the Pond and Genesis. The guys mentioned above generally have access to all of them. Search for Pond and Genesis here on CC and read about the pros and CONS.

2) Do I need to worry about TO vs. SO for street use? No.

3) Is the 428 just as good for street use as the 427? Yes.

4) what kind of cost should I expect to pay for the different (original) blocks, 427SO, 427 TO and 428 respectively. Impossible to say, as prices and availability change with the wind. Just start calling around and taking notes and you'll start to get an idea.

5) what specific things outside over bore should I look out for if I buy an original block? There are battery of tests (sonic, core shift, porosity, mag) that should be run on any old, used block (or even NOS in the crate for that matter.) Failure to have these tests conducted could cost you thousands within minutes of first start. You think the High Command has been a tough sell thus far, wait 'til your new baby pukes its forged/domed/ported/balanced guts up on your garage floor.

6) are any of these blocks compatible with / have provisions for aftermarket A/C systems? I have heard it done, but AC in a roadster without a top is sorta like a heater on a snowmobile, no?

7) I have also talked to some people who have urged me not to go the FE route and get a 351 sportsman or 351 BOSS block instead, and then if need be bore / stroke it to 427. There are lots of great reasons to go with a 351-based engine. I just spent 8 months and lots of $$ gathering all the parts to build a mild, date-code correct 450HP side oiler. Its neat, but there are plenty of small blocks out there that can blow me away. Guess its all a matter of your priorities.

[rustyBob]

If you are changeing the interior and adding A/C then I would suggest you go for a 390 FE,It has the look and sound and feel of a 427 and they are more plentiful than the 427 and can produce plenty of H.P. with the correct "look"you may be wanting and there company's like March that make pulley setup's that may allow the use of A/C.

[LMH]

I'd say a 390 also.
I was told (not sure correctly or not though) that the 390 oils the valve train better than other FE blocks.
Anyone know if that's true or not?
Larry

[MrBuffet]

No rust on this forum -- I pop outside to put some more wood on the BBQ pit and come back to 8 replies!!! -- that is what I call a real community.

anyways -- the advice on getting the facts from the DMV is sound advice so I'll give them a call in the morning, and it sounds like I need to give Keith and the other builders some calls as well to get some more input from them.

Likewise it sounds like 427 SO or 427 TO for that matter is a bit overkill, as the 428 runs just as well for street application, and several of you argue quite convincingly that considering the weight of the FF kit, a 351 may very well be more than enough.

That said, a 351 does not get anywhere close to looking like a FE block no matter how much I dress it up, but it does sound like the 390's could get close -- my question though is how close?

once again thanks for your input -- it is much appriciated

MrBuffet

[tnlprt]

to the man on the street it would look the same
cut the block for screw in freeze plugs dummy up the cross bolts
it looks like a 427 center oiler
if you need a drive train I can set you up with either a
full on 427 tunnel port Side oiler A hot 390 and a toploader
check my add for the toploader enlarge it count the SO blocks and add 1
We used to race circle track cars and guess what they had in them
http://www.clubcobra.com/classifieds...uct=2320&cat=4

[RICK LAKE]

MrBuffet You will have alot better and cheaper chance of finding a 390 with alot of meat in the cylinder walls than a 427 or 428. What ever motor you deceide on, Tell them you want a machinist to do a crack and sonic check before final payment. Sleeves in motors is another thing to have checked out.

How original is the car going to be? Iron block is find. You can save about 100 lbs with Aluminum heads and intake manifold. You will add about 50 pounds with an A/C system. What trans are you looking at?? 4 spd,5 spd, 6 spd, or Automatic??

If you are going to have a motor built, the top 3 are already names above. Building an FE motor is NOTHING like building a BBC or SBC. There are not alot of machinist out there that know what they are doing and how needs to be upgraded to get many years of life out of an FE motor.

If you want an FE motor under the hood, a 390 stroker out to 445 will make you a happy owner. A ton of torque to move the car with A/C running and still quick and streetable for years of fun driving. Cost should be about 6-7,500 dollars built with machine work and a stage 2 set of heads from KCR or Barry R's shop. Shop hard, watch out for used parts. The manifold needs to go to Joe Craine for a cleanup and balance of the intake ports in the manifold. He will equal the flow to all cylinders. On some manifolds there is a 20-45 cfm differents in flow. Big thing is a name plan and stay with it once you have what you are looking for. You will need a 130 amp charging system. Most cobras come with 60-70 amps and external voltage regulators.

A stroker windsor motor will work as well and cost a little less. There are some nice 408-427 stroker motor on the market that come with 2 year warrantitys. A good selling point if you are going to abuse the car hard. If you can talk to one of the Smith brothers, they also might shed some light on your ideas and buildup of your cobra. Good Luck. Rick L.

[convincor]

Originally Posted by MrBuffet

That said, a 351 does not get anywhere close to looking like a FE block no matter how much I dress it up, but it does sound like the 390's could get close -- my question though is how close?

MrBuffet

If my conscious would allow, when people ask if it's a 427 I could just say yes and they'd never know the difference..

[Barry_R]

You could find a really nice standard bore 390 block that'd clean up with just a .010 over hone to 4.060 bore, add a 4.125 stroke crank, and come up with a "real" 427 cubic inch FE. We did one of those for a Cobra owner who wanted to be able to answer that question from casual observers with a simple "yes".

Actually turned out to be a nice engine at a modest cost - made 423 horsepower with a very small flat tappet hydraulic, off the shelf Ed heads & intake, Petronics, and 770 Holley carb. Cosmetically looked FE correct, but obviously not original to the knowledgeable enthusiast - not intended to decieve.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by convincor

If my conscious would allow, when people ask if it's a 427 I could just say yes and they'd never know the difference..

That's ok. I've gotten to the point where if I'm at a show, or something, and someone who clearly has no idea what they're looking at asks me "Is that a 427?" I just say "Yes." It's easier than explaining that's "it's a 428 bored and stroked to a 447, but looks just like one of the 427s, but not the 427 that was originally in the Cobras, but you could only tell from looking at the underside of the driver's side of the block, but you can't get under the car to see that because it only has five inches of clearance........"

[convincor]

That's it. From now on the answer is YES!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by convincor

That's it. From now on the answer is YES!

I also have gotten to the point when someone, again who really doesn't know what they're looking at, asks "Is that real?" I now answer "The engine is; just about everything else I had made for me." That answer has worked better than any other response yet. About half the time they follow up with "Even the body?" to which I answer, "Yes, I had that made for me in Connecticut." To most of the folks that's as good as saying "Yes, this is the car that beat Ferrari and it is 100% untouched over the last 40 years." The people that really know FEs, or who really know Cobra replicas, have been few and far between. Although at the last car show a guy came up to me who had actually met with Peter about building an ERA car for him -- I spent quite a while with him going over different points of the build, letting him sit in the car, even started it up for him. That has only happened once since I've owned the car. BTW, when I'm at a car show I put a cardboard placard on the windshield that identifies the car as an ERA, the engine as an original iron 428FE, and other stuff... but you can't expect people to actually read that.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I also have gotten to the point when someone, again who really doesn't know what they're looking at, asks "Is that real?" I now answer "The engine is; just about everything else I had made for me."

Being fairly new at this, I am shocked by how many people actually ask that question. So I have taken to saying "the engine is real, the car is a replica."

Now I know how my wife feels when people say "Are those real?" But hers are. Really.

Sorry for the thread-hijack Bob. We are a narrow-minded bunch here.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

The high command (the wife) has finally succumbed to the constant nagging from my daughter, myself and grandpa (in that order) to allow us to undertake a 3-generation family build of a FF MKIII Roadster for street use (target: low to mid 400's HP, and about 450 torque, no drag, and only very seldom track usage).

As others and Barry R. have said, the 390 is the way to go, you can build a nice looking 390 to meet and exceeds your hp/tq. requirements for the price of a 427 block!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can also build a nice small block, stroked or otherwise and add the pentroof FE looking valve covers and 99.99346712% of the people looking at it in a Cobra would think it is an FE motor!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Now I know how my wife feels when people say "Are those real?" But hers are. Really.

Sorry for the thread-hijack Bob. We are a narrow-minded bunch here.

I just met a girl a few weeks ago, and asked her the same question. She looked a bit offended. But I really wasnt sure (and I had to know the answer).

anyway, i liked Barry's post on a 427??? crank in a 390 FE. Being pretty ignorant of engine details, can anyone tell me, bragging rights apart:

are there any issues with this? special pistons needed??
Does it need a particular cam?
how does this handle compared to say a 390 overbored to, say, 406?
Im guessing it improves the torque considerably as well as hp?
what is the upgrade cost compared to an FE390/406?
Finally, and I hate to mention it, (but at >$8 a gallon in the UK, its important)
how much would it drop the mpg going from 406 to 427?
- realise this is dependent on the juice pedal, but using say similar driving style, %-age wise.

any comments appreciated, particularly if you have one of these specs.

cheers,
Kevin