FE Main bolts needed

[elmariachi]

To resolve a pan clearance issue I need to R&R my rear cap ARP main bolts with stock head OEM-style bolts. Does anyone have a new set they'd sell or point me to where I can buy them?

Thanks.

[convincor]

not that it's what you want to do but... scroll down to the bottom of the page in the link and you'll see what they do is mill the cap and shorten the stud. http://www.gessford.com/cobraparts/ffasteners.htm

[elmariachi]

I am aware of that, but I do not want to go that route at this point as the engine is built and installed. My builder did exactly as he was told, he assembled my shortblock with the provided components. I asked Armando if his pan was clearanced for aftermarket main bolts and he said yes. I think what he failed to realize was that 99.9% of all the FEs using his pain had the main cap machined in advance.

I had him modify my rear pan rail to accommodate the ARP bolts, but ist still seeping and rather than continue to chase it, I am just going to R&R with the original bolts and he has agreed to restore the pan to original configuration.

[RICK LAKE]

elmariachi Call ARP and tell them what you want. Talk to their tech people, have have something to match and the strengh to hold that cap. What is the matter with studs and nuts? A picture of the problem would help. If the bolt head is too wide, is there a washer there? You can mark the bolt and washer, litely grind the washer and bolt head in the location to clear the oil pan. I would send the pan back to Armando and have it fixed if you already paided for the modification. Tell him it is not right. Rick L.

[Argess]

Did you install a windage tray? With the tray and 2 gaskets, you may gain close to 1/8th inch more clearance.

If you cut the studs, keep in mind you need at least 1.5 threads out past the top of the nut.

Please don't take offense, but could it be the oil you see is coming from the rear main seal or around the rear main cap? Those can be tricky to get sealed correctly....."nails...what a crude way way to ensure a seal.

If you do get regular FE bolts, I see nothing wrong with used ones. Thes arn't like modern engines which use a lot of "torque-to-yield" bolts that can only be used once.

I wouldn't be against using brand name grade 8 bolts if I couldn't find anything else.

[elmariachi]

Rick:

The ARP bolt heads extend up beyond the deck of the rear bearing cap the main cap recesses were not machined in advance. This caused a very slight interference with the Armando pan. After a couple of tries on my end, I sent it back to him to weld in some relief cavities, which he did at no cost. I also removed some material from the back of the bolt heads with a grinder (after creating a very sterile environment under the engine.) Even with those mods, its still weeping because to make his relief cavities, he had to get into the pan rail in those two spots. Armando has agreed to do whatever I want done so I am having him return the pan to original stock.

Argess:

Two gaskets and a tray, but it leaked early on which is why we had the pan mod'd. After two more failed tries, its leaking in the same place both times, right where Armando made the the reliefs in the rear of the pan and rail. It starts leaking as soon as the oil heats up, and once its starts, I can wipe it clear and see it coming through the silicone, over the ledge of the pain rail lip and onto the blockplate.

I have all 10 original bolts that were in the 89k mile engine. They were loosened and removed once when the engine was disassembled and ever used again. So I suppose they would be okay, just not my first preference. I have ARP investigating making me a set.


Its not a big deal, I just need the bolts and I'll be fine.

[FFR428]

Email Bob Hasty over on FE.com. Bob has quite a collection of hardware. He might have a couple of spares. Or post a WTB there and I'm sure someone will offer some up if no one can help here with them.

[RICK LAKE]

elmarichi Jim are you sure the leak is from the oil pan? Don't get madbut you have good basic assembly skills and is it possible you are missing something. Is there any change on getting a picture of the problem? Start with checking the surfaces for being flat with a flat edge, oil pan too.
How do you have the oil pan bolts or nuts torqued? Do you have both gasketed glued to the windage tray? What kind of material are the gaskets made of ? Cork, Rubber, or Dark gray heavy paper? I have used cork and it leaked around the bolt holes in the oil pan with correct torque applied to the bolts, I tryed studs and nuts to, still seeped. Forget rubber. I used the thick paper Felpro gaskets for the oil pan. Hi-Tac gaskets to the windage tray and use close pins to hold gasket in place and dry. Get Gray RTV sealer and use a very thin coat around both sealing surfaces. (No oil or residue can be on surfaces) install gasket and pan. I use 2 pins, 2" long to center the oil pan on the block in the car, 4 on the engine stand. Tighen bolts or nuts from the center out to spec after you have surface to surface contact. You will need a little help so not to smear the RTV. DRYING TIME 24 hours. Fill with oil and try. If you have a leak still it is not coming from the oil pan. You may have to buy a leak check kit at a good auto parts store. Pepboys,Autozone, and R&S don't sell the kit. It comes with glasses, dye bottle, and black light. Drop dye in oil and run motor for 10 minutes, you will find all your leaks. I use this 1-2 times a week for repairs. I am thinking rear main seal. If the seal is rope, O-Yea. If the seal is poly rubber about an 80% seal rate, if the seal is turned about 15-20 degrees. The caps may not have good seals in them even with the pins. Got to go to work, later Rick

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

elmarichi Jim are you sure the leak is from the oil pan? Don't get madbut you have good basic assembly skills and is it possible you are missing something.

I agree with Rick. I think it's time you pulled your heads and water pump. I think it could be that impeller thing again rearing its ugly head. Uhh, and take a video of yourself while you're doing all the work. And be quick about it.

[elmariachi]

What a rough morning. I removed the heads AND the water pump, and I cannot for the life of me figure out where the hell my oil pan is leaking. I have also replaced my Demon carb with a Quadrajet from my neighbor's boat to see if that helps. I think I am now going to now start unwrapping all of the taped wiring harness and see if the pan leak is in there.


































Not.

It was with dye that I confirmed that the leak is from the pan and not the rear main. I also tried the Hi-tack the 3rd time we R&R'd the assembly and it didn't seem to help/hurt. I have moved it into the bathroom and now use it for my hair.



I used Milodons one go-round but they are pricey so the last time I used the black FP fiber gaskets and Motorcraft grey. I have twice gotten a perfect seal everywhere except where the two spots where the rear pan rail is too narrow due to Armando's mods. I have no doubt that using short-headed bolts and getting the pan back to the proper rail width will solve this problem.

P.S. RICKLAKE I know you want pics, but my camera was left at Grandma's house when we were out of town last weekend and I am not going to go buy a camera just to post pics of this. I can see the oil weeping out between the pan and gasket and onto the rear lip of the pan. Also,rear seal is rubber with nails, done correctly and NOT turned, not damaged and NOT leaking according to the dye.

[ERA Chas]

See? You get zits on your nose for wearing your hair like that.

[garry viohl]

I used ARP studs for 1 to 4 and the last mains, I used two grade 9 bolts from McMaster Carr. 200,000 psi rating, two years 6000 miles, track time, no problems.

[undy]

El,

Maybe that new Taurus fan is pressurizing the crank case by the F4 wind blowing by the front crank seal?? Do you see any ballooning of the oil pan?

[Argess]

er.....don't think Grade 9 bolts are recommended......I think they are too brittle, but since there isn't any bending moment in this application....plus apparently they have held up (above post). I'm not even sure SAE or whoever, ackowledges the existance of Grade 9 bolts..

Basically, the reason I never used ARP stuff anywhere except the rod bolts is that all the other applications involve screwing into cast iron, which isn't very strong. Only advantage of studs is for engines that come apart a lot.....saves the block threads as long as the stud doesn't unscrew

[elmariachi]

George Anderson thinks reverting to stock bolts for just the rear cap could introduce some differences in the forces at work on the crankshaft and bearings. Scientifically impossible to quantify at this point, but I suppose its pretty good point that I probably don't dare challenge. I guess I could stay with what I have and maybe try fabricating a flat bar of steel that goes across the rear of the pain so that the bolts can spread the clamping force a little better across the back. Its either that or drop the rear cap and have it machined, which I really don't want to do. Do I?

[Rick Parker]

Dropping the rear main cap and having it spot faced is the best option and you can then retain the ARP fasteners. No reason not too.