Canton oil pan gasket - Page 4

ZOERA-SC7XX · #61 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 04:09 PM

I don't think it is just the gasket that's bad. I had no leak in my 428 FE before installing the Canton oil pan last winter. After going nuts chasing the leak, I bought a new (Fel Pro) gasket and dropped the pan. Just for $hits & giggles, I put a straight edge to the pan flange and lo and behold, the flange was way out of wack. The center rails were just about .125/.150 low and twisted downward at the outside. I hammered and twisted and tweaked until the flanges were almost perfect and square. After putting it all together with black silicone I tested it last night (put about thirty miles on it) and put it on the lift when I got home. No leaks...not a drop anywhere under the car. If you have a Canton and it leaks, It may not be just the gasket... check the flange.

dcdoug · #62 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 06:05 PM

I checked mine and it seems straight, but it is nearly new. I guess I'll find out......

dcdoug · #63 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 07:41 AM

OK, so here's the update - need some advice again:

I have never been able to get the broken bolt to turn with an extractor for some reason. I have no idea why it is so stuck as they all have turned easily in the past, but it is what it is. I have broken 3 extractors (with surprising little torque on them – I was being very careful on the last one) and don't think it’s worth spending any more time with this approach. In drilling out the broken extractors the hole has gotten pretty beat up and this may prevent the remaining piece of bolt (there is some left at the top of the hole and maybe still some bolt along the sides of the hole, hard to tell) from turning. (My original plan was to extract the bolt and use the Permatex epoxy thread repair solution and repair it, but I don’t think I will have enough good thread to do that – still a very outside possibility)

So here is what I am thinking. Drill out the rest of the bolt using the largest bit that will still fit inside the hole so that it can use the hole as a guide and stays plumb (I am doing this on my back under the car and the frame cross member is a bit in the way, so keeping it plumb is an issue – as Chas previously pointed out. I would insert the bit partway by hand and put a small level on it to be sure that the bit is plumb at the start). Once it’s “clean”, drill, tap and install a helicoil repair unit.

Initial questions/concerns:

• Is there a pretty strong chance I can keep the hole plumb doing this on my back (using the existing bolt hole as a guide)?

• Will the tap for the helicoil mostly be self-plumbing using the hole that I have drilled as the guide?

• How hard is helicoil to install, I have very little experience with it?

• If this doesn’t work for whatever reason, I assume that I can pull the engine and get the hole repaired? Pulling the engine seems to be the fallback option anyway.

Other ideas? I am really hoping not to have to pull the engine for a broken pan bolt. It’s almost too painful to think about, but I don’t see many other options and since I have been fighting this for more than a week, I am realizing that this is a distinct possibility.

Any other ideas/options?

patrickt · #64 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 07:45 AM

Doug, could you take a photo of the condition of the hole as it is now and post it?

dcdoug · #65 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Doug, could you take a photo of the condition of the hole as it is now and post it?

You are fast on the draw with your responses. I will try to shoot some photos tonight, but lighting conditions will be poor.

Oh, I know that it was suggested that I might drill another hole next to this one, but at this point I'd rather pull the engine if it got to that and have this hole repaired. I can't bear to take the second hole approach with this block....

patrickt · #66 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 07:54 AM

No, I'm thinking of something simpler... but I'd like to see the hole first. Remember, this bolt is not like a bolt on your connecting rod -- I only have mine torqued to 10 lbs. That's not much and all of the rest of your bolts are good. So all we really have to do is get something in there that will hold true at a pretty low torque. And, whatever we do, if it doesn't work it needs to be pretty much "reversible" if you just pull the engine and put it on a stand to work on it in a more convenient fashion.

ERA Chas · #67 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 08:03 AM

Doug,
You'll get the 'Iron Man Award' after this one.

A. There's a 50-50 chance.
B. There's a 50-50 chance.
C. Not terrible. Use the recommended drill size for the coil body in the instructions and it's like installing a normal fastener.
D. Yes pulling the engine is the last option. But I have another thought:

If it were me- assuming the boss inside the pan rail has enough 'meat', I would drill the complete hole to the next size and Loctite in the size- larger STUD. Don't go too deep and stay square as you can. Then slightly enlarge the pan's hole for the stud size and location. Use it as one of your two 'guide' studs to get the pan up.
Doing this means the bad hole does not need a fastener screwed and unscrewed over time. It stays in place and the 'weak' hole isn't worsened.

I hate doing this to a NOS block too but it'll be our little secret. It WILL solve the problem more easily than the other ideas.

patrickt · #68 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 08:07 AM

... and if you don't want to go the larger stud route, a TimeSert would be the option I would go with. The kits cost a bit more, but they're almost fool-proof if you have the room to work.

dcdoug · #69 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

If it were me- assuming the boss inside the pan rail has enough 'meat', I would drill the complete hole to the next size and Loctite in the size- larger STUD. Don't go too deep and stay square as you can. Then slightly enlarge the pan's hole for the stud size and location. Use it as one of your two 'guide' studs to get the pan up.
Doing this means the bad hole does not need
a fastener screwed and unscrewed over time. It stays in place and the 'weak' hole isn't worsened.

I hate doing this to a NOS block too but it'll be our little secret. It WILL solve the problem more easily than the other ideas.

How is this any different from the helicoil solution? All the same issues with plumb seem to still exist don't they?

dcdoug · #70 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 08:55 AM

Here's another idea that I am playing with as a first step. Drill out the rest of the bolt using a bit sized for tapping the hole for the current standard sized bolt. Run the tap in for these bolts. Maybe I will get lucky and clean the hole up enough to use the permatex solution with the existing bolts. If not, I can always go with the next size larger bit or helicoil solution.

Opinions?

patrickt · #71 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoug

Opinions?

Doug, do you have room to do this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxnm8J9WXz8

elmariachi · #72 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 09:26 AM

I have used Timeserts and although they show the tap being turned in by a drill in the video, in this case I would do it by hand using a tap handle or Crescent wrench, so that you can go slow. And doing it by hand will help keep it plumb, though I think that wil take care of itself once you get the bolt out. Unless this bolt is in a completely blind spot, if you can drill it out then you should be able to get the insert in.

patrickt · #73 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 09:28 AM

Absolutely do it by hand. The TimeSert stuff is razor sharp and cuts very well. If you can just maneuver around, you'll be able to do it all by hand.

dcdoug · #74 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 09:44 AM

Timeserts seems similar in approach to the helicoil solution, using a different approach. Room is tight and I couldn't use the full tap handle like that, but I have been jerry rigging solutions that work so far to allow me to drill out the bolts and turn the screw extractors and could probably do something like this as well. As long as if it gets screwed up, I can pull the engine and get it fixed. Is there a reason that timesert is better than helicoil?

Also, it seems that it would make sense for me to try to clean up the hole enough to use the permatex epoxy solution and the standard size bolts first. Permatex will hold to 128lbs of torque so it would be plenty strong, if I can get enough thread in there for it to adhere to. Even if it was slightly weakened, it should be more than enough for this relatively low torque application.

Agree that I should do all the tapping by hand regardless of the approach.

patrickt · #75 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoug

Is there a reason that timesert is better than helicoil?

I would tend to prefer it with the oil pan seal because of the lip that it grounds around the top and then it inserts the doo-hickey in to that reamed-out lip making it perfectly true and a flush fit on top. I've always thought of a TimeSert as being one step above a heli-coil.

elmariachi · #76 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

I would tend to prefer it with the oil pan seal because of the lip that it grounds around the top and then it inserts the doo-hickey in to that reamed-out lip making it perfectly true and a flush fit on top. I've always thought of a TimeSert as being one step above a heli-coil.

I agree. The countersunk lip/insert is a better scenario on the pan rail.

Plus I own shares in TimeSert.

Just kidding.

dcdoug · #77 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 11:38 AM

OK, I re-watched the TimeSert video clip. Does the seat cutter that makes the countersink in the lip ensure that the tap goes in plumb or only makes it more likely that it will go in plumb. Chas has me paranoid about getting it plumb now and I think that is an issue when you are doing it on your back.....

patrickt · #78 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoug

OK, I re-watched the TimeSert video clip. Does the seat cutter that makes the countersink in the lip ensure that the tap goes in plumb or only makes it more likely that it will go in plumb. Chas has me paranoid about getting it plumb now and I think that is an issue when you are doing it on your back.....

If the hole that you drill is really off center, it won't fix that. But if it is just a little bit off it should compensate for that a bit because the seat lip cutter has a depth-stop on it. What that does is make the doo-hickey sit flush at the top which will also, presumably, make it be in straight. The hole doesn't have to be in absolutely 100% perfect, but you do want the new hole to be flush with the block and that's where the lip reaming effect comes in. Here, I found the instructions for you on the TimeSert. It's pretty easy to use, that is if you have the room to maneuver under there. http://issuu.com/wurthuk/docs/time-sert

dcdoug · #79 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 11:56 AM

One option to create a bit more space if I had to would be to raise the motor - how much height can I get by loosening the motor mounts and hoisting it a bit?

elmariachi · #80 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 12:03 PM

I would think you are only limited by whatever contact your headers might make in the engine bay (remembering your sidepipes are connected too), the clutch linkage and radiator hoses. If you loosen the mounts and go up slowly watching these items, you should be able to get an inch or maybe even two (with the hood open.) On my car I would not have to loosen the rear trans mount but you may have to.



FE Forums sponsored by Keith Craft Inc.