Canton oil pan gasket - Page 3

ERA Chas · #41 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 07:39 AM

Yes the 3/4" bolts work with a windage tray and additional gasket. Didn't realize you may not have one. Using washers (even splits) defeats the purpose because the serrated head will hold the bolt to the washer but allow the washer to relax against the pan.

It is best to shorten the bolts. Run them through a die to get clean threads and let them bite the pan directly. It's a PIA because there are 22 of them (I think) but with a sharp hacksaw blade or a cutoff wheel it's really worth doing. Don't forget to start a nut on the threads before you cut to length, then remove the nut to chase the thread a little. Measure the thread depth carefully so they don't bottom.

Studs and Locktite won't work- did that for years. Just install 2 studs as guides for installing the pan. Put the studs away from the leaking area.

damdfw · #42 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 07:43 AM

Doug,
Keep at it and I'm sure you will get that broken bolt out. I was wondering where you found the cobalt tip universal bit. I have been trying to drill through some very hard stainless steel and have broken numerous cobalt bits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoug

Short answer is no, but I think I will be able to. I broke the bit late in the day and will get a new one tomorrow (there is a bit more to do). I really don't want to drill any new holes in that block. It would also be tough to do with the cross member somewhat in the way. And I REALLY want to get this done with the engine in the car.

I was able to find a hard enough drill bit to drill out most of that broken extractor. Ironically they market it as a "universal bit" but it has a cobalt tungsten tip that cuts much better than the straight cobalt bit, which was crap.

Frustrating not to get it done this weekend though. It's always these little stupid things that take all the time. But probably not much more frustrating that the Skins.

I just want to get it done for the Middleburg cruise in a few weeks. Are you planning to go?

dcdoug · #43 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Doug ... I had the same problem with my pan bolts .... they were too long , but short enough that when they were installed along with a lock washer , they gave the impression of being tight and the pan being secure . However , that was because they had bottomed out ... oil pan leaked like the devil and took a while to find out why . I kept retorqueing the bolts and it didn`t help . I have to pull my pan now to change out the gasket and am real interested to see if the Mr Gasket bolts can be made to work , otherwise , I`ll use studs with blue Locktite .
An alternative is to shorten all the bolts ... but that would be a real pita .

Bob

Be careful about continuing to re-torque bolts. I had one with a flaw in it and it sheared off (don't know what grade of bolt it was, I didn't install it, but am replacing them all). You want to see a REAL PITA, spend some time on your back drilling out a bolt and removing it with an extractor. Uh, and don't break the extractor like I did. 10x more of a PITA. Then you get to deal with any thread damage that may have occurred and installing a repair kit, which I will likely need to do.

I think the longer bolts will be fine going into the timing cover and maybe the rear bolts too. the ones along the side will definitely need to be cut down. Compared to the above, a reciprocating saw with a hacksaw blade should make this fairly easy.

dcdoug · #44 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Using washers (even splits) defeats the purpose because the serrated head will hold the bolt to the washer but allow the washer to relax against the pan.

It is best to shorten the bolts. Run them through a die to get clean threads and let them bite the pan directly. It's a PIA because there are 22 of them (I think) but with a sharp hacksaw blade or a cutoff wheel it's really worth doing. Don't forget to start a nut on the threads before you cut to length, then remove the nut to chase the thread a little.

Thanks for the good advice! Will do.

dcdoug · #45 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damdfw

Doug,
Keep at it and I'm sure you will get that broken bolt out. I was wondering where you found the cobalt tip universal bit. I have been trying to drill through some very hard stainless steel and have broken numerous cobalt bits.

This is the manufacture of drill bits that I found works best on hardened steel. WAY better than cobalt bits, but the blade is different and I think that plus the tungsten carbide makes the difference:

Brand is ARTU. I know they have them at ACE, but they don't have them at Home Depot (nor any other bits that work with a crap for this purpose). Funny because I at first dismissed ARTU because of the long list of "universal" applications they list on the package. Figured that meant that it wouldn't work well on a specific high intensity application like drilling steel.

http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...Id=44124371604

patrickt · #46 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 07:56 AM

Doug, Chas is right on the windage tray and two gaskets. They take up more room than you think. Here's a page of pics of the side of my block, but a lot of the pics show the width of the stuff between the oil pan and block. http://208.255.159.239/428block/index.html

dcdoug · #47 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Doug, Chas is right on the windage tray and two gaskets. They take up more room than you think. Here's a page of pics of the side of my block, but a lot of the pics show the width of the stuff between the oil pan and block. http://208.255.159.239/428block/index.html

I don't have a windage tray.....

patrickt · #48 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoug

I don't have a windage tray.....

Pick one up. It's cheap and easy horsepower on the high end and add in the extra gasket and those bolts might fit perfectly.

dcdoug · #49 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 08:25 AM

I think that's a good idea. I will probably order one today.

dcdoug · #50 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 08:34 AM

Any specific windage tray you would recommend. I have a canton pan, if that matters.

patrickt · #51 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoug

Any specific windage tray you would recommend. I have a canton pan, if that matters.

This is the one I have above my Canton oil pan.
http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...ion&key=20-938

EDIT -- Note that it includes studs and nuts.

dcdoug · #52 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:08 AM

Does anyone know if I can get the pan on with the windage tray on a CSX car? It was a tight fit getting the pan off and clearing the rods since the frame cross member doesn't allow you to drop the pan much.

In fact to get it off I had to starter bump the engine to get the pistons toward the top of the stroke for the rear cylinders or it wouldn't clear.

patrickt · #53 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoug

Does anyone know if I can get the pan on with the windage tray on a CSX car? It was a tight fit getting the pan off and clearing the rods since the frame cross member doesn't allow you to drop the pan much.

I don't know the answer to your question. But I will tell you if that was my car and there wasn't enough room then I would loosen the motor mounts and lift the engine up a smidgen in order to do it. This is not as big a deal as it sounds; the hardest part of doing that is borrowing a lift for the day, but the CACC has a couple that you can check out of the "library" any time you want.

dcdoug · #54 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:45 AM

Ok, I will give it a shot. If I can't get it to go, then I may need to add it later. I don't have a truck to go pick up the hoist, so prob couldn't do it easily/quickly. Needs to be done this weekend so I am ready for middleburg........

ERA Chas · #55 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 12:11 PM

dc,
Getting the tray is a fine idea. Just remember it will lower the pan by the thickness of it and the additional gasket. That means you should check the pump pickup to pan floor dimension to make sure you have the recommended .250" to .375" clearance and not more.

patrickt · #56 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

dc,
Getting the tray is a fine idea. Just remember it will lower the pan by the thickness of it and the additional gasket. That means you should check the pump pickup to pan floor dimension to make sure you have the recommended .250" to .375" clearance and not more.

Absolutely right, and I had completely 100% forgotten that and would have continued to have forgotten it even if I was there in the garage doing the work myself. Nice catch, ERAChas.

dcdoug · #57 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 12:29 PM

With that clearance, it seems unlikely I would have the right pick-up if I am adding a tray and additional gasket. What's the best way to measure that small of a clearance tolerance? If I need a longer pickup, how do I order the right one?

ERA Chas · #58 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoug

With that clearance, it seems unlikely I would have the right pick-up if I am adding a tray and additional gasket. What's the best way to measure that small of a clearance tolerance? If I need a longer pickup, how do I order the right one?

If you don't know what the clearance is now, don't be sure, it may be OK. But you have to check.

Check with Play-Doh or clay. Put a lump on the pick-up and attach the pan with four bolts to compress the Doh. Slice through the thickest part and measure.

If you need a longer tube, you can call the pan mfgr (Canton or Milodon or whomever) and ask if they have another size pickup. If not, ask if they'll modify yours.

Failing that contact Nick Acton (Mickmate on here) and Nick will fab anything you need or modify yours.

If your motor is stroked, put the tray in place, rotate the motor by hand and be sure you have .060" minimum clearance for rotating parts.

It IS worth the trouble to do this.

dcdoug · #59 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 03:36 PM

Play-doh, now there's a unique application for it. What a great idea. I will do that. In case anyone knows the answer, I have a canton pan and am adding a canton windage tray sandwiched between two milodon pan gaskets. Engine is a 427 FE. Oil pump is melling if that matters.

ERA Chas · #60 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 03:57 PM

Good. Check the measurement first and if needed call Thor at Canton for pick up length alteration or Mickmate.



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