Nanufacture of this stacked injection ?

[FUNFER2]

The ebay seller does not know who made this unit.

He's,...."I'm selling for a friend"

anyway, I'm curious, but not a possible buyer.

Ford FE Webber Style 8 Stack Fuel Injected Intake Manifold.


Ford FE Webber Style 8 Stack Fuel Injected Intake Manifold | eBay

[fordracing65]

TWM or Borla.

[FUNFER2]

I wish we could know exactly,....

I've always wanted a stacked injection, but way too expensive. One like this, could be affordable, but I don't want a piece of *hit and troubles.

"This is what the seller just wrote me.

"When I Google Ford FE 8 stack manifold it looks exactly like the fast one, throttle bodys too except polished, the rails are different though

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

I wish we could know exactly,....

I've always wanted a stacked injection, but way too expensive. One like this, could be affordable, but I don't want a piece of *hit and troubles.

"This is what the seller just wrote me.

"When I Google Ford FE 8 stack manifold it looks exactly like the fast one, throttle bodys too except polished, the rails are different though

Fast is twm.

[fordracing65]

You would still need to buy a stand alone system. Wiring harness. Injectors. Etc. about 5 grand more.

[FUNFER2]

Ya, that sucks !
I've heard of some complete systems costing around 12k (+)

Nothing looks cooler in a Cobra than stacked injection.

[fordracing65]

I think a carb and turkey pan look just as good per original. Or even better dual carbs.

[FUNFER2]

I like dual carbs and the pan, but prefer the stacks.

[Topfuelhydro]

Don't know who's it is but the body castings and throttle linkage parts look exactly like my Borla stuff.

Steven

[66gtk]

Borla purchased TWM and the same designer works for both. I have a complete 8 stack system installed in my ERA with a 427 FE. I'm considering pulling it out and going with dual carbs for the sake of original appearance and function. It's complete with everything you need. It's a TWM unit and XFI computer, Autotrend harness, dual wide band, programing key, cables, etc... And yes, a complete new system is about 10K, not including custom dyno tuning.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Nothing looks cooler in a Cobra than stacked injection.

Yeah, well, the looks are just about ALL you are paying for with stack-style injection on a street driven car...

You pay 10 grand+, for a system that looks REALLY cool, but still only offers half the benefits that you would get with a true closed loop, mass-airflow managed port injection system (which costs half as much)....

Like this one:

FE Ford Complete Mass Air Sequential Port EFI System - Ford Complete EFI Systems - Pro-M EFI Engine Management Systems

These Pro-M systems are cool- the mass airflow sensor sits on top of the throttle body, hiding underneath your old-school style air cleaner. Add a turkey pan to cover up the fuel rails, and you would still have a "correct" vintage look (yeah, I know, not as cool looking as 8 air horns), and you get ALL the advantages of a self-calibrating, closed loop EFI system.

But hey- if coolness is what you're after, you could take that extra 5 grand that you'd save, and find a set of original magnesium Halibrands...

[olddog]

I did notice that at the London Cobra show this year, there were more 8 stack and webber (both real and EFI) than I remember in the past.

I have to admit I do love looking at them.

I also somewhat agree with the previous post. The EFI system he pointed out is the next generation of the MassFlow that I have and it looks to be a fine system. Although I do disagree with the self tuning claims a bit, but that is another discussion.

I think these 8 stacks are way over priced. I am a fan of measuring the mass flow of air entering the engine. MAP is OK. When you have to go Alpha-N, I'm not sure it can measure fuel as good as a carb would.

I love the look of the 8 stacks. I think a mass meter in one stack might have a chance of working. Or if an air filter box was put on top and all stacks pulled from the filter box, a single tube with a mass meter could feed the filter box. I'm quite sure I could build this for way less money using a friends machine shop. I doubt I will ever try, but after I retire, maybe.

[FUNFER2]

I agree, WAY,....over priced.

The "self learn" is a trial to make tuning easier, but what I hear from engine builders and seasoned vets of the old school guys, is, they don't have the system worked out yet, as they still have problems to be worked out. That's why so many give up and go back to carbs.

My father had a friend that was a carb extreme pro. I remember watching him in his garage tuning with a vacuum gauge and more important, his ears, on his 12 cylinder,....... Jag. Amazing to watch and listen. Every spark plug were the same grayish color. Not rich, not lean, just right.

I love all the old gassers that had the stacks sticking out of the hood a foot tall.

[FUNFER2]

Did any,.... of the big block Cobras have the stacked injection or just the small motors ?

[map]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

You would still need to buy a stand alone system. Wiring harness. Injectors. Etc. about 5 grand more.

Mircosqurit 339.00.

Microsquirt Standalone Engine Management with 30" Wiring Harness | eBay

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Did any,.... of the big block Cobras have the stacked injection or just the small motors ?

No. Big block competition Cobras used carb with turkey pan.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

The "self learn" is a trial to make tuning easier, but what I hear from engine builders and seasoned vets of the old school guys, is, they don't have the system worked out yet, as they still have problems to be worked out. That's why so many give up and go back to carbs.

Self tune is a marketing ploy. Ford and every other manufacturer uses O2 sensors to add or subtract fuel. Different OEM have different methods, but they all basically accomplish the same thing. Most OEM, if not all, use narrow band O2 to dial in the fuel trims. The narrow band O2 is only used at light loads, when Lamda is near 1.0 (14.7 air to fuel ratio).

The aftermarket guys toss in a wide band and claim now we can self tune at all conditions. True enough, but if you correct at light loads, you will be correct at heavy loads, as it works for the OEMs. So did they gain anything with the wide band? Maybe maybe not. The reason the OEMs use narrow band is that they are more accurate and long term much more reliable.

Now all this self tuning is about getting the fuel to actually deliver what was asked for. It does not tune or change in any way what is asked for. What is asked for is the most important part of tuning the fuel. Well, a 14.7 AFR gives the least emissions, leaner better fuel mileage, and ~12.5 the most power at WOT. If you run 14.7 at WOT the engine melts, assuming detonation doesn't destroy it first.

So if at heavy loads the engine pings, you may want to richen up the fuel or pull some timing. These self tunes do nothing for this. Timing is where the power is at, and they want to tell you that one timing curve runs all engines. Well it will if you use modest timing for the engine that is most prone to detonation, and all other engines will leave power on the table and waste fuel doing it. Well a knock sensor can be used to pull timing, but it just yanks out a bunch to save the engine. It does not experiment and add a little back in at a time until it hears a ping and then back it off. At least every system I have read about acts that way. It would be possible to do, but I have not heard of any doing that. Not that I know everything.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

The "self learn" is a trial to make tuning easier, but what I hear from engine builders and seasoned vets of the old school guys, is, they don't have the system worked out yet, as they still have problems to be worked out. That's why so many give up and go back to carbs.

Depends on what kind of "self learning" system we are talking about.

With some of these new, self learning throttle body injection systems... I agree- They are buggy (I think TBI sucks in general for performance applications, to be honest- If you want to run a cheap carburetor style intake manifold, then you might as well just run a carb on top of it... )

But MAF/MAP combination port injection systems are fairly well established, and still offer the most EFI benefits for the cost (JMHO).

Olddog- Great post about wide band versus narrow band tuning - agree that it is all more about marketting BS than actual performance.

Your idea about integrating the MAFS into the 8-stack horns is one I have thought of as well - But I was thinking that the best way to do it would be to string an air flow meter across each air horn, and then program a chip to aggregate the signals from the 8 sensors and blend them into one air flow curve to feed the PCM, as opposed to using the signal from just one throttle body and then assuming that the other 7 are flowing the same amount of air... probably 6 of one, half dozen of the other- Your way would be easier (and cheaper)

But like you said- it's pretty much just a brain exercise, and would only add more cost to these outrageous $10,000 systems, so unlikely to ever go anywhere.

And like you also said- every year, more and more guys are running these systems - Eventually, the single carb look is going to be the most exotic looking

[razerwire]

To me , for what its worth, the manifold looks different than any of the T.W.M. manifolds that I have. If you go to current Borla site it looks different than newest one. I have one of the early setups where their is casting between throttle bodies at butterflies and I have two of newer T.W.M. units where the middle casting between throttle bodies has black springs instead of enclosed. All the manifolds have ribs down the center and are really good castings. The manifold pictured is real ruff compared to mine. Fuel rails seam crude also. Just freshened up engine for Bennett car and used oldest manifold with the casting between throttle bodies. Was surprised at the numbers. Engine had original sidewinder intake with reworked carb and made 455 hp. With T.W.M. and set of aluminum heads , now have 658 hp at 6000 rpm. Torque is 523 at 2500 rpm up to 631 at 4700 rpm, and never goes below 514 up to max rpm of 6500. The csx car has had T.W.M. setup since day one and I have had zero problems with it. Just hauled Gene Winfield in parade 3 weeks ago for hour, I admit when I went home the engine seamed happy to have it's barrels opened more than idle. Sorry back to subject, does not look like T.W.M. or newer Borla unit to me.

[razerwire]

It does have Capstan tower linkage kit and throttle bodies are close but not quite.