Map-able ECU

[sandpitcobra]

Hi,

I have a Ford 302 Fuel injected engine out of a 1989 Mustang fitted to my AC Cobra. I have upgraded my camshaft to a Ford performance camshaft and the car is now running rough and rich. My understanding is I need to re map the ECU but I have the original Ford ECU which isn't adjustable. What are my options for ECU's that can mapped for under $1000?

Thanks

[bobcowan]

Unless you went with a really radical cam, the factory tune should be pretty close. If anything, it would run a little lean. You might have a different problem that can't be solved with a tune. Look for vacuum leaks, stuck injector, etc.

There are external performance "chips" available for your ECU. They can be tuned specifically for your engine.

[spdbrake]

SCT makes a great tuner board. Usually they can email you "Canned" tunes based on your mods. Let them know thru their support Forums what your looking for Cam spec etc. It will save you from spending time & $$ on Dyno time.
https://www.sctflash.com/Products/un...or-switch-chip

[olddog]

I think 89 was speed density. If so it doesn't have a mass air flow meter. Yes SD doesn't handle cam swaps as well.

Moats sells a quarter horse chip that will give you full access to do anything you want to your eco. The question is do you invest in 30 yr old technology or go with something new and better. Your capacitors are ready to die in your ECU. They can be replaced.

Your looking at $3000, to upgrade to a good modern fully tunable EFI.

[Jerry Clayton]

Look into HP Tuners---------my son Corey works there and they are going to have a show in Dubai later this year---------

Also-------maybe you are a little off with degreeing the cam????????

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by olddog

I think 89 was speed density. If so it doesn't have a mass air flow meter. Yes SD doesn't handle cam swaps as well.

Moats sells a quarter horse chip that will give you full access to do anything you want to your eco. The question is do you invest in 30 yr old technology or go with something new and better. Your capacitors are ready to die in your ECU. They can be replaced.

Your looking at $3000, to upgrade to a good modern fully tunable EFI.

Olddog is right about the SD units. The best performing design across all types of weather and geography (high altitude and low altitude is a Mass Air Flow (MAF) based system. It measures the mass of air flowing into the engine under all conditions and then provides the correct corresponding volume of fuel.

Olddog also hit the nail on the head in so far as what you are going to spend on an EFI system. You will be somewhere between $2500 and $4000 depending on who you pick — there is no escape. It can go higher if you attempt to cut corners. The corner cutting route will cost you money to rebuy the correct EFI components and then of course there are the damaged engine pieces you will need to replace.

If you elect to keep the old SD system it will be a continuous battle with long forgotten, early design technology that has a poor availability and a poor fit for what you are trying to do. When Detroit has to mass produce engines that meet stunningly strict emissions limits anywhere in the country at any altitude from Death Valley to the top of the highest mountain they use a MAF based fueling strategy, for a reason — it works everywhere.

Tuning software like SCT, Delta Force, HP Tuners and an enthusiast developed product called Binary Editor all require you to know the internal workings of the Ford strategy code you are using. 99.999% of the guys do not. Guess where that leaves you?

If you go with the third party systems, they at least give you a manual to document and describe their fueling logic. Just for $hits and giggles I've attached the manual for the MS3Pro-Ultimate product offering from DIY Autotune. This is the commercial version of the Bowling & Grippo Megasquirt products.

If I were faced with the choices you currently are I would look at either Pro-M Racing's EFI or the MS3Peo-Ultimate B&G EFI system and use a Pro-M MAF no matter which system. The Pro-M EFI is a Ford racing design which they have used on their factory racing efforts and it is built in the same facility that builds the OEM units. It is MAF based and has self learning capabilities to get you up and running. Here is a link to the EFI ECU page => ProM Racing EFI

You will need a MAF to measure airflow. I highly recommend the PRO-M stuff again because of product quality and PRO-M was founded by the Ford calibration engineer that pioneered the MAF based technology at Ford. This Youtube video will show you why you want their MAF, click here => Pro-M Racing MAF Voltage Signal Part 1. Here is a link to their EFI MAF page, click here =>Pro-M 80

When you are done looking at the video you will probably say wow but, so what. Here is the answer to the so what question, click here =>Pro-M Racing MAF Voltage Signal Part 2

I chose not to use the Pro-M ECU because it only supported a return style fueling system — which because of its simplicity works great for racing. On the street I wanted the benefit of a returnless system like Ford uses because it doesn't heat the fuel boiling off the light ends that add octane. In a supercharged application, like mine, octane is important to avoiding detonation and engine survival. The only aftermarket system that supports the returnless fueling model is the MS3Pro-Ultimate. Here is a link to the webpage => MS3Pro Ultimate

You sort of jumped right into the fire. Your alternative to the EFI fueling model is carbs. When you are done with the cost of a manifold, a new carb, misc hardware necessary for the install, a new electric fuel pump and regulation gizmos you are going to be 70% or more of the way to EFi pricing. Be smart, go EFI out of the box. My personal EFI preference is a returnless style EFI.

As luck would have it the MS3Pro-Ulitmate manual is too big to upload to the site hso here is the link to download it from their site, click here => MS3Pro User Manual


Ed

[sandpitcobra]

Thanks for the advice. Sounds pretty complicated. BTW it is a mass flow system. Thanks eschaider, I'll look through all the information in your post and see if I can work out my best options.

[olddog]

Sandpitcobra,

Since it is a mass flow system, you may want to try the quarter horse route and tune it yourself. I think I have about $800 by the time I got the ability to flash a permanent chip and a wide band O2. But do you have the time to learn the skills and the aptitude to do it?

I really liked the ProM Racing system. I almost pulled the trigger, but it really ticked me off that I would have to buy a new wire harness to change, when I already have a new wire harness now. It would be possible to make an adapter to use the old harness, but no one sells one. The $2000 extra was tough to swallow. So I picked up a spare ECU and went the Quarter Horse route.

Locally I couldn't find many dyno tuners that wanted to work with the older stuff, and the ones who would, had a policy of drop the car off to them and pick it up when they are done. I was not going to hand the keys of my Cobra to a stranger for a week, while they drive it to resolve any drive-ability or cold start issues. It ain't the strongest bad ass Cobra in the world, but it certainly has the ability to kill someone not ready for it.

[olddog]

Depending on the cam shaft profile, you do get into issues with a lot of valve overlap. There can be reversion air flow. The piston will push some exhaust up into the manifold, before sucking air back down, at an idle. The mass air meter does not have a clue which direction air is traveling. It only knows that air movement cooled a heated wire, and it measures the current required to keep the wire at a desire setpoint. The current is proportional to the mass of air that passed by.

If you have reversion air flow the MAF will measure more air entering the engine than what actually entered the cylinders. The huffing and puffing is measuring air passing back and fourth. This will cause the engine to idle rich.

This can be tuned out by commanding a leaner mixture, however it is better to solve the mechanical issue. If you add more pipe between the MAF and the manifold, it should smooth the pulsations out.

[eschaider]

Olddog's points about reversion are (IMO) spot on again sandpit, but if you look at the Pro-M Youtube MAF videos you will notice that Pro-M actually built a reversion resistant MAF that specifically addresses the issues.

I have owned and currently own a Moates Quarterhorse and used it with a Ford EEC specifically built by Ford for the 03/04 Supercharged Cobra engines. It works, you need to license Binary Editor to program it and the Ford ECU. Even then there are hard limits that Ford coded into the ECU logic that require you to scale various items like your MAF curve, your injector flow rates, your engine size, your manifold volume etc.

The problem with the scaling approach is it distorts engine load (among other things), which is a primary parameter for fueling considerations, and impacts drivability as you approach the limits of the scaling exercise. Once again you are using an obsolete ECU, that Ford does not make any more and the associated components are becoming increasingly harder to find.

A modern ECU with modern sensors is a blessing from God. Even better is a modern day ECU that allows you to use any sensor by providing the ECU the calibration for the particular sensor and you are off to the races so to speak.

Normally you need to go to the high end of the aftermarket offerings with systems like Haltech and Motec that come at dear pricing points to get these kinds of capabilities. I believe BigStuff3 will also allow you to use different sensors and recalibrate for them. At the low end of the price scale there is simply nothing that compares to the Megasquirt MS3-Pro systems — the bang for the buck is nothing short of stunning.

If you really want to go the OEM ECU route I have a brand new Ford 03/04 Cobra ECU that you can use a Mach I strategy for and drive the 302 you are using. Along with the ECU I have a complete, brand new Mach I engine harness for the ECU, a Moates Quarterhorse and a current version of Binary Editor to program with. Literally everything you need, All brand new.

My stuff not withstanding, I still think you would be best off with either a Pro-M Universal system or the MS3-Pro Ultimate system. They are all new technology with fast ECU's and have no problem keeping up with today's performance engines. They use readily available sensors and are not faced with parts obsolescence issues that will force expensive remedies.

Like several of us have suggested earlier you are going to be in the tank for a couple grand no matter which path you pursue. If you make poor choices you'll get to make (and pay) for replacement pieces yet one more time.

If you are an Indiana Jones movie fan, think back to the Indiana Jones movie, The Last Crusade. Remember in the cave where the Knight's Templar, Guardian of The Grail, admonishes Indy as he is perusing the wide choice of grails before him, "Choose wisely! He (the dead Nazi on the floor) did not."

You are Indy and a number of us who have suggested and admonished you on this adventure you are about to begin, are the collective Kinght's Templar Guardian — and we are trying to help you ...


Ed

[olddog]

I know nothing about the Megasquirt MS3-Pro. When I was first looking at all this, Megasquirt was offering a box of parts that you soldered together yourself or a huge step up in price to buy it assembled. Yet people were still loving it. The capability, access to software, universal sensor choices was claimed to be out of this world.

I was unaware Pro-M actually built a reversion resistant MAF. I do have a Pro-M MAF. They were universally called the best by all the tuners I was around.

Ed is correct. If you spend let's say a grand to go the Quarter Horse Chip route, eventually you will come to realize you delayed the inevitable by throwing your money away. At some point in the not so far future, your 30 yr old ECU full of capacitors that are drying out will fail. These ECU are getting harder to find. A few years back you could still buy re-manufactured units for $300 bucks. What all was replace in these during the re-manufacture process is questionable.

If you are not going to keep the car very long, maybe save the money. However the old technology may hurt the sale verses a modern new EFI. Typically you do not recover all the cost of a new anything. However you get to enjoy a much better easier to tune system. Trust me Binary Editor is no fun. On the other hand, if you plan to have this car 10 or 20 years from now, do you honestly think that 40 or 50 year old ECU will still be working?

[sandpitcobra]

What about the BAMA 4 bank eliminator chip from American Muscle. Could a tuned chip from them solve my issues?

[C5GTO]

My Cobra has the early 90's Ford EEC IV EFI system with a Quarter Horse chip that was programmed via a dyno tune. While the engine runs great, gets decent fuel mileage, and I have no real complaints about the EFI setup, I do worry about the possibility that some part of the electronics has a failure and I won't be able to get replacement parts or find someone that can reprogram it.

I put the EFI/ECM system in the car when I built it in the mid-90s. It was all that was available at the time as an alternative to carburetors. The engine was running lean prior to the dyno tune so running a stock Ford tune wasn't OK. I was told the combination of Edelbrock intake, large valve heads, and long tube headers flowed much better than the stock parts thus leading to the lean condition.

So if I were you and deciding between modern, aftermarket EFI/ECM and an early generation Ford unit, I'd go with the current technology. It may seem to cost more but in the end, it will likely cost less and you'll have a better running, more dependable car for it. The technology has advanced very rapidly making the couple of decades old variety obsolete already.

[eschaider]

Joel's points are spot on sandpit. Chips were what was used before tuning s/w was generally available. A chip solution is half a kiss and a promise. If something goes bump in the dark and the chip programmer has managed to get a real job you are high and dry with no way to modify the code — and many times no way to even see what the chip modified in the code.

You need a modern EFI system that is self learning and modifiable by the owner or other individual willing to learn the system. The sweet siren song of the other alternatives will cost you dearly.

In Greek mythology. Sirens were beautiful half women with the upper bodies of humans and the lower bodies of birds. Their bewitching songs and unparalleled beauty would lure sailors to their doom. So irresistible were their songs that sailors who heard them would navigate their ships ever closer to the shoreline only to crash on the rocky bottom hidden just below the water's surface and drown.

You are hearing modern day Siren songs. The correct answer to your dilemma is a modern EFI system and get back into the deep water away from the rocky shore. I encourage you to look real hard at the MS3Pro ULTIMATE. Beware of the Sirens ...


Ed

[sandpitcobra]

That was deep Ed but I get your point. Perhaps a bit of hard work now will pay off 5 years down the line. I appreciate all the advice, this forum is amazing.

Ian