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Older Replica - Tire Rubbing

Discussion Tools

12-28-2015 03:04 PM - permalink

427sharpe

Front wheels are offset WAY too negative (rim outboard)! The entire wheel and tire should be INSIDE the fender flare, not protruding out. You would need a wheel with far more positive offset (moving the edges of the rim inboard); very hard to find an off the shelf pin-drive wheel for the EM with enough to make up for the 3/8" thick knockoff adapter. I suggest you remove the front wheels and check for proper clearance inboard, then find a bolt on wheel to check it. My car used to run a 15X7 Torq Thrust D with 4" backspace perfectly--and it had the MII front. On an off chance, the strut rod (going from lower control arm to frame) may be way too tight, or incorrect length, pulling the LCA to far rearward. When you take off the wheel, get a string and run it from the centerline of the upper ball joint thru the centerline of the lower and post a pic and we can go from there. Problem could be exacerbated by a bad alignment. Hope this helps!!

12-28-2015 03:13 PM - permalink

427sharpe

Had to add a 2nd post (length):
Check the body to assure it is mounted square to the frame. Tom mentioned the Jag rear, m2 front; but EM used to let you pick your options from the list of M2, 'Vette, Jag, and their own design 4 link w/panhard on 9". You could mix and match at will! So I think the M2/Jag set up is probably factory. Also, the M2 cross-members were welded in, and unmovable. Good luck!!

12-28-2015 10:11 PM - permalink

EM-0785

Tommy, Tom & 427sharpe, some responses below.

Measured pass side prior, on ground, hub centers at 90. But did both sides tonight more carefully. First, 90 pass, 89-3/4 driver. Next, nudged steering wheel, 89-3/4 pass, 90 driver. Then everywhere between, always adding to 179-3/4 for both sides. Hard to get both tires exactly straight at once, maybe ¼” play is alignment.

Original EM 1985 receipts show “Body Assembly Package”, “Modified Cobra Frame – Hybrid – Mustang II front and Jaguar rear “, “Body, All Panels Mustang”, and “Frame, MII-F, Jag-R, FLB”. The cross-member in the front is welded to the 4” tube.

Will check wheels as you indicate, and body square, and put a string to the joints, more to come on that! My wheels are 5 bolt with mock knock off, if it makes a difference (I guess I’ll see). Inspecting mechanic did a recent alignment after updating existing front suspension wear parts (grommets, joints, etc.), does run straight.

Thanks, Brent

01-02-2016 02:55 PM - permalink

EM-0785

Follow-up measurements - 1 of 2 (length)

Body Square (on lift)

Outer frame rail to body edge: body variable, avg 1-17/32 driver & 1-3/16 passenger, 11/32 more driver side. Meas’s pretty consistent front to back of rail on each side.

Vertical straightedge: Over center Rear tire out to fender lip 1-1/8 driver & 1-1/32 passenger, 3/32 more driver. Over center Front tire in to fender lip 1-1/4 driver & 7/8 pass, 3/8 more driver. (Alignment or prior rubbing may impact).

4” tube to outer sidepipe behind louvre 20-7/16 driver & 19-11/16 pass, 3/4 more driver (for what it’s worth, tubes may be bent different).

Per mechanic no evidence of accident on frame.

MII Front

Added photos to suspension album w/string from center zerks on upper/lower joints. Is that the view desired? If not just advise & I’ll re-try.

A thread said MII put hubs out too far & stuck tires out. Can/should I replace arms/hubs to move in, by design, still using the MII welded cross-member?

01-02-2016 02:56 PM - permalink

EM-0785

Follow-up measurements - 2 of 2 (length)

Front Wheel/Tire

Height on ground w/straight-edge across tire 9-5/8. Backspace measured from straightedge on tire down to rear hub mounting face of wheel 4-3/16.

Given 7” wheels less ½ of tire bulge from 9-5/8, leaves 2-7/8 backspace on the wheel itself (I think).

Maybe find a wheel with like 4” backspace? Seems a lot of room inside in my fender-wells, current wheels not close to hitting suspension parts lock to lock. Front tires do get very close to rear of fender when initially turning in. Tires also get about an inch to the front body frame mount when turned in to lock.

My knock-off adapters sit fully outside the wheel, bolting over wheel with the lug nuts, so no added space between hub & wheel.

Front wheel/tire measures 26-1/4 tall (off car). Is that too tall for this car? Maybe 50’s vs 60’s help? Could 16-17” with lower profile tires still be short overall and help?

Thanks, Brent

01-03-2016 02:29 AM - permalink

427sharpe

OK:
1. The string picture looks ok--I was looking to see in the LCA was pulled badly to rear, and it doesn't look like it--a good thing.
2. Tech says nothing looks bent--another good thing
3. My old car ran 245/60R15's on American Racing Torq Thrust D's (15x7) and did not rub; my chart shows overall tire height 26.57"
4. AHHH--wheel backspace! My TT D's had 4" (I think AR said 3.72" or some such) and pulled the wheel under the lip pretty well. If you're at 2.75" they are to shallow for the M2 front end. Make a jig and get as much backspace as you can.
4a. JIG: Flat bar with holes for 2 lug nuts; mount to rotor and use a ruler or metal rod to check for max clearance AT RIDE HEIGHT, INCLUDING AT STEERING STOPS
5. MAYBE the rearward look of front tires is caused by the offset (optical illusion??). Fix offset first & recheck.
6. GOOD LUCK!!

01-03-2016 02:38 AM - permalink

427sharpe

About the jig, a second option!
A good piece of heavy cardboard (that wont bend) or a piece of plywood is good. Cut a circular piece slightly bigger diameter than the tire you want to run. This will be a safety margin. Check the car at ride height, and be sure to check at full stops on both sides (in case they are different). Get the most backspace you can without rubbing--and leave a margin of safety. I think I did 1/2 inch to account for compression of the springs and such. I believe you would be fine at 4.5" and it would tuck the tire under nicely.
Good luck!

01-03-2016 12:12 PM - permalink

EM-0785

Makes sense! I’ll go to it & report back. Greatly appreciated!

Q's on jig:

Testing max clearance at ride height (I assume at max tire height), do I need a 2nd rod at rim height to ensure rim doesn’t snag also? Maybe a string between the rod ends?

Since doing with car lifted, do I simulate ride height by scoping from top of tire on ground & note that point inside for reference when lifted?

Rack & pinion lock to lock (l-l) on ground once fine (maybe damaged here?). Lifted & went l-l once fine. Next, still lifted, full left & only ¼ right. Did unsprung angle affect? Put on ground, lifted ½ weight off tires, full right again & only ¼ left now? A concern, or w/full weight allow it to work? How to do jig l-l when lifted if it won’t do so?

Pipe dream: reasonably priced, multi-dimensional plastic simulator for wheel/tire decisions. Lug mount, telescoping for every wheel/tire size combo, incl backspacing. There’s a product engineering puzzle if not existing!

Thanks, Brent

01-04-2016 02:24 AM - permalink

427sharpe

1. No. Just move the all thread to a different hole in the angle to simulate the tire or the rim (shown in pic).
2. On ground, measure ride height by gap between body and tire; jack up, jackstands at 4 corners; then CAREFULLY jack under the LCA to simulate ride height; remove wheel; jack will still allow steering to turn
3. I am confused here on the rack--it should go full lock to full lock unless:
a) Binding (Internal defect); b) rack is moving---a lot---bushing failure?; c) Interference (something hitting @ full droop); d)Steering shaft slipping??
I don't know how any of these would escape an alignment tech so I am puzzled here! R&P must be functional to check wheel & tire clearance, not to mention safety! Wouldn't want to go into a turn a find out I only have 1/4 turn l or r!!
4) A proper tool exists for this mess--about $500 last time I checked and a PITA to use. Before that, I'd mock the whole damn tire/wheel out of cardboard layer by layer!

Good luck!

01-04-2016 11:04 PM - permalink

EM-0785

I’d missed the upper hole(s) on the jig photo! Also, thanks for ride height simulation technique, makes sense.

Will verify the rack, either my lift was binding, or rack/steering issue. Drove much since alignment, first it’s presented. Will proceed with caution.

You’ve offer good options for wheel/tire simulation. I like the angle rod.

New development…I found there’s one larger backspace version of my 15x7 wheel. Going from my published 3-5/16, to 4-7/8. I ordered today to see if it helps. Upper A-arm may be tight, thought I’d add a thin spacer if it’s a bit too deep. Takes 3-4 weeks to build & ship to me.

If wheel works, still have ride height/stance issues.

1. Front rides way high, likely to miss tires. How to figure correct lowered spring/shock?
2. Rear body rides low, how to raise? Add spacer above main frame-mount? Add taller/adjustable coil overs? Both, other??

Thanks, Brent

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