Assembly Required! Or turnkey?

[oliver350]

As I read through the forums here and Gt40.com, I really can't justify buying a car in kit form for less money and then go through all the pains of assembly.. wondering if you have all the parts,what starter,bellhousing,clutch, shifter to use and the endles calls to the manf...questions on and on and on.... and then figure out how to put the car together and ultimatly paying more for the kit than a Turnkey. Most Kits don't come with a manual. So it is up to your skill for everything. Recently there has been numerous threads about missing parts or "I will worry about that later statments" in the efforts to complete the build. In addittion, a person with moderate or no skill in body or auto mechanics will attempt to undertake a project that is normally completed by skilled individuals. I understand that part of the fun is the accomplishment of building somthing and the pride of doing it yourself. For others it is a financial reasoning. You can complete the build as funds come available. But are you actually saving money? Actually it will cost more..Out sourcing is very costly with these cars! Gt40's and Cobra's look like simple builds but in essence, a very difficult build.
I have moderate to above average skill in mechanics but very low skill in body and painting. Given that, I still would not undertake such a huge
project. It also seems that once the kit is delivered, some companies will give a high degree of tech support but it is still up to the person to complete the build. I would find that a majority of the kits lay stagnent and eventually get sold for lack of knowlege,money or sick of asking the endless questions about "How to do that".
When you buy a turnkey, there are still many questions but minimal until you are on the road. I really feel with that leave it to the pro's to build the car. You would be much better off and ultimatly more happy.
The forum is a GREAT Pool of knowlege to draw from. And Thank God it is here!! i'm always reading how to do somthing or read somone elses methods. After restoring 4 cars personally not including Body and Piant, I will now only build install the motor myself.. If I have the time. It's simple economics to have it done and on the road.
Back to the Question... Turnkey? or Assembly required..What are some of your thoughts? After all!!we share the same passion, but do we really want to wait years and go through endless frustrations waiting or to achieve our dream car. We ultimatly just want to drive the car. This build is very comprehensive but even they take a great deal of work - one to two years of hard work is about average and six or more years not uncommon. If you are doing a lot of the work yourself it takes even longer and requires more skill. Well over 500 GT40 kits have been sold in the UK but the GT40 Replica club knows of less than 100 cars that are on the road. I would bet there are less than 20 cars on the road in the USA.

This is not a beginers car! I am not trying to dampen your enthusiasm (or save your marriage!) - its just that it is a significant investment in money and an even bigger investment in time. BUT - It is more than worth it!

OR - If you don't want the hassle of building one, perhaps you might be interested in a complete, finished, second hand car.

Regards OLIVER

[427SnakeSC]

Rolling chassis or turnkey! No Question. In Canada, we can't buy a turnkey, so I am forced to buy a rolling chassis and have the drivetrain installed profesionally. No worries, just have fun driving it!

[oliver350]

I forgot about the canadians.!!! Turnkeys are rolling chassis. However, you have the choice to install the motor and trans yourself or have it done.Regardless to install motor and trans is moderate compaired to a full build.

Note 49,000.00 for a non assembled kit plus $25,000 for simple motor, ok paint job,and cheap Audi transaxle...Any upgrades form the basic setup get prepared to pay! plus time and labor.=$72,000 + basic!! SPF Turnkey $69,000.00Turnkey just fit motor and transaxel done!. This can get up to over $100,00.00. But you have a professionally finised car with the best of everything. Resale would also be a great variance if the car was a kit or a factory produced car. Build standards are individualized by kit ...Manf. stadards consistant by Mana fact. specifications.

OLIVER

[427SnakeSC]

I figure when all is said and done, and I have my CSX on the road, I will be into it to the tune of about $100,000. I considered making the changes to my Classic to make it closer to "correct", but the cost would have been too high and the car would not be worth any more than it is now.

[jim ccc]

Oliver.

All your points are valid.
I think most of the time it comes down to stringing out the budjet over a period of time.

For me its the build.
Personal touches.
I dont agree that a factory car will be worth more.
I think if the products fitted or made are quality the value will be there if it is assembled correctly.

Jim ccc

[dlampe]

I actually disagree with most of your points. I am on my third kit, looking at a 4th. It has never taken more than 6 or 7 months to finish any of them and I can only work on them for a few hours on the weekends. I have also made money on all the cars that I have built. The build itself is therepy for some of us. I have not been that impressed with a factory car that is exactly like the next one, maybe just a different color. As for resale, in the cobra world, the Kirkham and ERA are at the top of the list and they both are assembly required. I don't think there are near as many unfinished kits as you think.

I am looking at the RCR kit and I can get a kick ass 550hp/600ft/tq with webers, your ZF and a great paint job for $25,000. The RCR is less than 50 grand to build a turnkey minus. The factory built cars are $20,000 more! For $75,000 I will have a car that will be as good if not better than any of the much more expensive options. The only variable is my time and ability. If you have time and ability and really enjoy the project, the economics are in your favor with a kit.

Just my $.02!

[ENTDOC]

I see both sides actually. I have built 2 cobras ,one basic model that required significant work to complete and a Kirkham roller (much more involved than dropping the motor and tranny in) and I am working on completing a 66 gt350 mustang clone and a 67 mustang restomod for my son. I have been looking at GT40's for a while and a CAV come up recently with 400 miles on it and all the goodies,the price was too good to pass up and it would cost 90K to reproduce it. For me this was the most economical and quick way to have a 40,I will do some upgrading I am sure but I am driving it daily. I have no doubt dlampe and Bill will build outstanding RCR's and have fun doing it.Will they save money? Who knows. Will they have fun? You betcha.

[oliver350]

Everybody is correct!! I should have not stated that the Kit would be worth less. But on the other hand it's true! Many of you have the skill to complete a quaility build no doubt. When I had my car inspected by the state license board the inspector really appreciated the quility of my car. He went on to mention that 3 out of 5 cars pass the first time. He explained that many kit builders cut corners to complete the build and it is scary to see how they put thing together.Sure it is economical to complete the build yourself..But your time is also money when you decide to sell.Wright? If you look at the market on ebay the cars are priced around the same amount. The higher dollar cars are the ERA's And SPF Ect. RCR Is tipping the scale on sales due to price. I have not seen a RCR up close. But from the pictures and from owners staments, the quility of the welds/fiberglass ect..ect..is good. On the other hand, I also see numerous questions regarding receiving the car imcomplete to what is promised and Questions Questions Questions ..how too how too how too....This would not be a enjoyable build. Era,SPF are complete and well sorted kits. Yes they are a higher price but you have everything with little sorting. You cant honestly state that a RCR complete
would be worth more than a ERA or SPF. Why? all quaility craftmanship.What is the Difference? The difference is Reputation!!! ERA SPF Are Well established. RCR does not have 1 GT40 on the streets. dlamp! im sure you are well experience to complete a build. And I totally agree that it is therepy. As long as it does not turn into frustration. Of course frustration will happen normally when completing a build. But your frustration should be with the car...not he company the supplied the incomplete kit. Basically what i'm trying to say is that if you have the time to complete a quility build it will be benificial to do it yourself. You will get the benefits on resale...MAYBE! but you can hardly ask the same money for RCR compaired to a ERA with the same quilty of engine transaxle ECT..ECt...It just won't happen. Recently a Deluxe RCR kit was on ebay. The bidding did not even come close to what the gentleman paid for it in the first place. This basically will set the trend for completed cars by RCR.
So the botom line is you get what you pay for. Look! my car was a factory complete turnkey. The company is now bankrupt. New owners have taken over the company. Is my car worth the same as when I bought it? I think not. But the one advantage, It is the only complete turnkey produced by this company in the USA. I would think it would be worth more then the kits that were completed by there owners.. But who knows!!! I probably will never find out. I plan on keeping it till I die. Now that I have this car, I really have no other dream cars.

Best regards and thanks for the comments...OLiver

[dlampe]

Oliver, You make some good points. I don't, however, think that the RCR market price has been established. They don't have any cars done! SPF and ERA have set the bar high due to the quality of their cobra's. It is a little bit of a gamble to jump in with a manufacturer that doesn't even have 1 car finished, but sometimes that is the best value. The completeness of the RCR is not there compared to the others, yet. But a completed finished car could be better or worse than ERA, SPF, CAV and the Rouring Forties. You are right, it does depend on the builder at this point. I think Fran's price reflects all of these issues. When the kit gets fully sorted out and all the pieces are given to the buyer along with a super build manual, this kit will cost as much as the others. At that point the kit price will surely increase. After all, it is not what you paid for it that establishes the price, but the the quality of the car.

[oliver350]

Your right again! Fran is a good witty Bloke. But surly when things get sorted the price will increase.

PS. If you want One of my ZF'S. I have 2 left just sold 1 yesterday. Fran
Will refer you to or Jerry for questions about the ZF's He is doing the rebuilds for me. Jerry also does all the Audi boxes for Fran as well.

Regards OLIVER

[Dwight]

Where can I get more Info on RCR? Dwight

[oliver350]

Look up RCR Replicas on the Web Or GT40's .com pleanty of info. Fran will chime in if you have questions. And he will be quick to sell you a kit.
Tell him OLIVER sent you and you will get 10% off the Kit.

Regards OLIVER

[mn12]

Oliver,

While I had to agree with you regarding your crusade against Logan over on the GT40 board I fail to see what possible reason you could have for belittling Fran and his operation. I have no dog in this fight as I am not a replica owner yet but now that you have a 40 you are happy with perhaps you should leave it at that. Attempting to make oneself look better by belittling others does quite the oposite.

[xlr8or]

Oliver I don't get it. What's your point here? This site is full of people who have done their own assembly of cars (for many different reasons) and enjoy them just the same.
If you have a problem with RCR or others that require assembly then lay out the facts not speculation on how many uncompleted kits are out there. I think your guesstimates of uncompleted kits it way off. I think you are way off base in saying that a car that requires assembly will cost more in the end or be worth less. I put my car together myself and it's worth more than most if not all SPF cars on the market. If I don't have to pay the mfr for 100 or more hours of assembly labor I am saving money by doing it myself.
You seem to have an agenda here but I'm not sure what it is.

Sure some people jump into this hobby blindly and get frustrated but I think most do their homework before hand and know what they are putting their hard earned money into. Your statements in the first post come off like your telling anyone who assembles the car themselves is stupid and short sighted so again what is your agenda here?

[ROUSHAC]

Oliver,

Turnkey/used = instant gratification.

Roller = "almost" as instant gratification

Built yourself = satisfaction of the build and knowing the car better, but more time involved.

It's just a matter of YOUR personal priorities at the moment in time you decide to do it.

Most people that build these kits do an acceptable job. Some do an exceptional job. Some do a poor job. It's the same with turnkeys and rollers.

Make sure that you deal with someone that you trust with your life for a roller or turnkey.

If someone is not confident in their abilities to do at least an acceptable job on a build, they better get some knowledgeable help and advice before driving their car at speed. I know several people who built their own cars with lots of advice and help. They did an exceptional job while involving their family in the build, and had a great time.

As a kid, I was a "do it yourselfer". Now I am a "pay someone elser". Simply a matter of deciding that my time is better spent with my family at this point in time to me. When I retire, I will probably go back to being a "do it yourselfer". Everyone has priorities that change over time.

One has to determine one's own abilities and priorities.

Good luck in whatever you you decide.

Cheers!
Dave

[oliver350]

I have no agenda just speculation from what I have read. I have explained the points already why people build the car themselves.. Go back and read the threads again. I have no problem with RCR just Calling it like I see it. I do have a problem With fran callling me miss informed WRIGHT FRAN? I know you have been reading my threads every day and Ron earp as well. My points are accurate. Or do you want me to explain again to the forum regarding are phone coverstation. Or did that slip your mind?
In regards to your car being worth more than SPF on the market.
It may be worth more in dollars what you spent but not what you can get back. Please post some photos of your car so I can point out your the differences. If the 2 cars are equal. I would still buy the SPF for the Reputation of quility and Service. So please don't tell me you would get the same money. My point is that you spent the same money!!!
I never insinuated that anybody was stupid for building there own cars. I merly was pointing out that you can have it completed for the same money with beter resale. I think if people read with not the intentof me be-littling you would have a better comprehension of what i'm trying to state. It is clear that RCR is a very comprehensive build as I stated. I'm not picking on RCR .IT RCR customers that post were I can draw my conclusions about. If customers from other companies were posting the depth that the RCR customers were posting. I would comment on that to. You stated that people Most people do ther homework before they put there money were there mouth is. WELL!! I think your wrong. Most purchases are done by word of mouth. There is a $500,000 of losses from RF customers. I guess I was the only one that did my home work. I'm sure there were other that did there home work and decided not to purchase From RF. My posting about RF probably save several other from lossing ther hard earned cash. If the moderator from that forum acted more resposible, others would have saved as well. This forum like the GT40 Forum is for information. Good or bad. The botom line is that what I post is not relevent to the customer. They are going to buy or not buy regardles of what I say. So please don't post If you have a problem with what I wrote, don't comment...go back to Ronnyboyz forum. And dont hijack this thread into a debate


WELL STATED BIGFOOT!!! WELL STATED!Thanks Oliver

[xlr8or]

You can see my car and it's details in the for sale section of this sight titled Kirkham for sale.
As far as the Gt40 forum I am new to that as I recently decided to sell my car and BUILD a GT40.

I'm not going to go back and read every post you've written here or there to understand your point on this thread. I was stating it sounded like you had an agenda in your post that started this thread and couldn't tell what that agenda is.
You stated that GT40's and Cobras are not a beginners build. I think many here feel otherwise. I built my car and have helped others and don't find them to be complicated or difficult. If a first timer needs some guidance there are many sources such as this site to solicit help from. As you stated that is what they are for.

Again if your intent was to solicit feelings on build vs. buy then great discuss that all you want and you will get many opinions. To me that didn't seem to be your intent.

[dlampe]

Believe me, I love a good debate (fight) as much as the next guy. I agree with xlr8or. There seems to be more to this line of posting than is being said. I don't care about that, not even a little. I would still like to continue the build or buy topic.

As Roushac said, it really does depend on the builder. There is no right or wrong just a different intent. A lot of times when I have completed the build, I sell it because to me the real fun is over. So I think we can all agree "different strokes for different folks". That brings me a point that I want to be clear about. I have made good money in this hobby selling cars that I have built. They have brought more and they have bought less than the turnkey minus cars. I depends on the build. I will say without a doubt, if given equal budgets, I will get more for a car that I build vs a turnkey minus. To that end, if I build an RCR and spend $75000 on it, it will bring more than an SPF, CAV or RR40's car on which I have spent an equal amount. If I spend $80,000 on a SPF or CAV and $70,000 on an RCR, There will likely be $10,000 difference in finished price.

[oliver350]

True, are you counting your time?..or is that just considered the a loss for the love of the build. I guess i'm just gettin lazy. As somone stated earlier...When i was young i had plenty of time and no money. Now I have the money but very little time. Sad but true. I love being in th garage and being totally absorbed in the build. Be it buffing out a screw that has some greese on it or rebuilding the whole car. We are all fortunate that we have the opertunity to enjoy this great hobby. I just want the FOLKS to be aware of what they are getting them selfs into.
Especially with the GT40.

Regardes OLIVER

[dlampe]

I absolutley love working on these cars. The time in the garage is in lue of a golf hobby or something else. That time is priceless. I would love to have someone chime in who has built both a cobra and a gt40. Is one more difficult than another?