strange timing on 351C

belgiumbarry · #1 (**permalink**) 07-02-2011, 05:12 PM

hooked up my timing lite on the "new" Pantera 351C and found something strange... perhaps you can help/explain it for me.... ? Has a Unilite distributor , no vacuum.

If i put it to 36 ° max the car was exhaust exploding once above 4000 rpm....
If i go 6 ° more the car runs perfect....

Now there's a painted stripe on the 6° mark as to show something by a former owner/mechanic....???

Can the balancer be another type with wrong degrees marking ? ( 6° less )
Found in the papers a mention of a Comp cam ... can a "race " cam demand 36 + 6 = 42° advance ????

Perhaps a "wrong" ?? fix pointer ???

Anyone has a idea ? can ofcourse check piston 1 top .....

Gaz64 · #2 (**permalink**) 07-02-2011, 08:06 PM

Find true TDC and see if your balancer and timing tab lines up at Zero.

Possibly the inertia ring has shifted.

patrickt · #3 (**permalink**) 07-02-2011, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Possibly the inertia ring has shifted.

Yep, they do shift. Mine shifted right off the darn ring itself.

belgiumbarry · #4 (**permalink**) 07-03-2011, 01:59 AM

thanks gentlemen ! didn't tought at that possibility ....

...explains the white paintstripe... someone before me in ownership will have had to find TDC and marked it that way . Hope the balancer stays that way and doesn't go like patrickt his....not sure now, but quite possible we have to pull the engine for a replacement.....

as i remember there's just enough clearence between balancer and firewall to place a new belt...even had to pull a little bit to get the belt wide between ! Ok, perhaps just lifting the engine a bit so the balancer comes more compleet in front of the service port in the firewall....

Great site , found you guys very tech talking with knowledge...
Sorry i'm here with a Pantera.... but share one of your engines

Gaz64 · #5 (**permalink**) 07-03-2011, 02:26 AM

Wise to paint a stripe across the inner hub/rubber/outer hub on your new balancer before you replace it.

Then you can monitor the ring status in relation to the inner hub.

belgiumbarry · #6 (**permalink**) 07-03-2011, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Wise to paint a stripe across the inner hub/rubber/outer hub on your new balancer before you replace it.

Then you can monitor the ring status in relation to the inner hub.

Great idea ! i have also a service hole in the bellhousing ... which is directly visible for timing light check....gonne paint there on the clutchplate a stripe at TDC.
For the balancer i have to remove the firewall lining ( belts and some screws , audio cables... ) and behind that a door with some bolts... lucky it can be done with the seats canted and most to front position....

cobrajeff · #7 (**permalink**) 07-03-2011, 05:24 AM

Once you get the timing marks straightened out on your balancer, I would recommend painting the same (TDC, base time, full advance) marks on your flywheel, through the inspection hole in the bellhousing,and paint a pointer stripe on the center edge of the hole to align the timing marks to.

Makes checking and adjusting timing on a Pantera much simpler - you won't have to pull the seats or rear panel out to do it - just point your timing light at the bellhousing inspection hole.

regards,
Jeff

gsharapa · #8 (**permalink**) 07-03-2011, 07:35 AM

Stupid question but I assume when you are putting it on 36 total you are running the rpm up passed 2500 or where ever it maxes out prior to putting it on 36 total? With campy gas these days I use to run my 351 around 34 total. If you still are having problems after all above recommended you might have the distributor check or try a different one but those old Ford balancers with the rubber ring especially if the rubber is cracked slipped all the time,,,

belgiumbarry · #9 (**permalink**) 07-03-2011, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsharapa

Stupid question but I assume when you are putting it on 36 total you are running the rpm up passed 2500 or where ever it maxes out prior to putting it on 36 total? With campy gas these days I use to run my 351 around 34 total. If you still are having problems after all above recommended you might have the distributor check or try a different one but those old Ford balancers with the rubber ring especially if the rubber is cracked slipped all the time,,,

yes, it max out at around 3500.... can try 34 and see what differs.. ok, we in Europe have still 98 octane....but first i will have to check TDC on piston 1 , even if i can't reach it well...

or.. is there another piston number firing at the same point at 1 crankshaft rotation later what would be the same for the timing light ??? more aft so i could reach it better to find TDC ?

looked it up for a 351C... should be the 5the cilinder firing, beeing number 6 which is second from front left side ... this one i can reach alot better ! I'm i right ?

Now what can we put trough the sparkplug hole to see it raising/stop/going down ??? a "straw" ( spelling ? ) as children use for drinking out of bottles ?

Barnsnake · #10 (**permalink**) 07-03-2011, 08:46 PM

Simply sticking something in the spark plug hole is not nearly accurate enough for establishing a timing mark. You need to get a piston stop and insert it into #1 spark plug hole. Adjust it so the the piston comes up against it at 30-40 degrees BTDC, then lock the setting. Make a temporary mark on the damper at the timing pointer. Manually rotate the engine backwards until the piston again hits the stop. Make another mark at that point. Carefully measure the distance between the two marks and make another mark exactly half way between them. That is true TDC for your timing pointer.

You can use exactly the same process to use a home-made timing pointer if the factory one is inconveniently located. Some stiff wire under a bolt head and then bent into a pointer works nicely. Once you get a true TDC for the new pointer, install a timing tape on the damper to get a full timing grid.

Gaz64 · #11 (**permalink**) 07-04-2011, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belgiumbarry

yes, it max out at around 3500.... can try 34 and see what differs.. ok, we in Europe have still 98 octane....but first i will have to check TDC on piston 1 , even if i can't reach it well...

or.. is there another piston number firing at the same point at 1 crankshaft rotation later what would be the same for the timing light ??? more aft so i could reach it better to find TDC ?

looked it up for a 351C... should be the 5the cilinder firing, beeing number 6 which is second from front left side ... this one i can reach alot better ! I'm i right ?

Now what can we put trough the sparkplug hole to see it raising/stop/going down ??? a "straw" ( spelling ? ) as children use for drinking out of bottles ?

If number 6 is the 5th cylinder in the firing order, you can time from this cylinder. When 6 is on TDC compression (firing), cylinder 1 will be at TDC valve overlap (end of exhaust, beginning of intake).

Positive stop method, however you do it, is the only accurate way of finding "True TDC".

As described by Jim above. You can also use a modified spark plug with extended reach into the chamber to "kiss" the piston in both directions.

belgiumbarry · #12 (**permalink**) 07-04-2011, 05:26 PM

i'm sure now about the TDC mark and put the car with 36° total... runs great.... Has 26 ° at idle and the Unilite distributor ( no vacuum connection ) gives another 10 ° max at 3500 rpm.....
Took away 2 degrees ( 24 + 10 = 34 max ) and drove the car this evening ... but have the feeling it's not better .....as if there is a weaker behaviour above 4 to 5000 rpm.... think i dial it back to the full 36 max °....should be remote control on dashboard

, so we can play with it driving.... just afraid with exhaust noise i won't hear eventually pinging ?

It's as with the 34 ° i have to smooth gaspedal and going up in revs... full throttle at once there's some hesitation in power release .....less that feeling with 36°.

Don't know also if the jetting is good ??? It's a Edelbrock carb but God knows what jets size is there ....for a garage queen , suppose many starts to be moved/ show/routine maintenace , some minor mileage ... the plugs are sure not dark ... either very light brown..... and sure dry.... i have now new plugs installed. ( Autolite 25 )..... Perhaps i need to check and go 1 step greater jets ? Rather wish a fouled plug once a while then a lean engine failure .
Also there's a fuel pressure gauge facing the engine compartment... not relevant i think as you can't see it under load driving .... ( still only mechanical fuel pump ).....bought a electric fuel pressure gauge , think installing this ... only pitty i have to drill a hole somewhere in the, so far,original dashboard.... but metering is knowledge

Had a spirit drive this evening along country roads and found after some 10 miles i had almost no brakes anymore ....

.. again that garage queen ghost ofcourse ... quite possible that the brake fluid is also numbers matching

.... don't have to guess what % H2O there can be after 25 years....gonne purge the hole system and fill with high boiling point racing brake fluid... as we have here ATE BLUE....

positive point : the car is totally better now on new racing tyres Michelin TB15 and new coilovers from Intrax.... as a train instead of a boat