Is it REAL? Keith Craft takes the Challenge! The Results

[CSX 4027]

I keep an open mind and am always willing to learn. My partner builds the motors, not me so, I am just one of the Missouri kind of New Yorkers, I need to see it. The believing part is the next transition. I'll call you tomorrow.

[Keithc8]

Couple of other things we pulled the engine at 600, 500, 400 and 300 rpms per second and the readings were within about 5HP and 4ft/lbs torque through out. The reason for pulling engines at different acceleration rates is to see how the engine is affected by slowing down the mass and giving the dyno more time to read. If a engine makes about the same power on a fast pull as it does on a slow pull it will accelerate in first and second gear well. These engines will normally have a lighter bob weight and crankshaft.
The other reason for a fairly good VE is that the engine is still a little lean and this is letting more air through the carburetor, richen it a little more and the VE will go down a little.
The engine was also ran at about 150 to 170 degrees most of the time. If you do a flash cool down like they do at the drag strip you would pick up a little HP/TQ. We did not install any trick oils like Royal Purple which is ussually worth about 5HP up high. Just plane straight forward testing. Thanks Keith

[1962SuperStock]

Keith's engines set NHRA records because of the rpm/sec he uses to dyno them. (One can only imagine the dyno vapor pressure it must have taken to make Dave Rodak's street-driven Cobra go 139 mph in the 1/4-mile.) And Keith's customers have nothing bad to say about him because their engines grenade.

You can't fool me, Keith Craft.

[rdorman]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Keith does Clevelands!

Me so happy....

Not looking to rebuild an already fresh motor Keith (when I do, your phone will ring) but perhaps you can help a guy out here.

I would like a few more ponies out of my motor....... as inexpensively as possible of course. Motor was lovingly balanced and blueprinted by Duffy Motorsports in AZ.

Want to get a bit more power out of my Cleveland. The engine is a 40 over, balanced and blueprinted, keith black flat top pistons about 9.3 to 1, ARP bolts throughout (builder says 6500 conservitive limit for bottom end reliability), performer 4V intake (nothing has been matched, 4V open chamber heads, stock stroke/bore, arizona exhaust pipes (1 7/8" ID), 670 holley, 1" four hole spacer, 38 degrees timing with Unilite dist. and MSD box, cam specs
CAMSHAFT SPECS (From label on cam box)
Effective @ .050 Lift
VALVE Intake Exhuast Intake Exhuast
Lift (net) .510 .536 --- ---
Duration* 292 302 214 224
Opens 34 83 0
BTC 49
BBC
Closes 78 39 34
ABC -5
ATC
Overlap 73 Timing is net

On the dyno the car was running very lean. I beleive that is was because the intake manifold gaskets where sucking air and oil from the lifter valley. It was very obvious when I changed the gaskets. Air/fuel has been corrected as well. The car made 323HP and 354 torque to the rear wheels through a toploader and jag rear. Torque curve was very broad and peaked at about 3500. About 90% of peak from 2000ish all the way up to about 5600.

HP peakes at about 5300 where it remained the same until 6100. By 6500it was down almost 50HP.

The dyno numbers where before the intake gasket, 670 carb (run with a 600), MSD and four hole spacer.

Thanks in advance oh builder of power!

Rick

[Cracker]

Steve Sunshine - I'll call your bluff and WILL get one-more-pass for the show. You said it - show up!

"I have never seen a 427 run more than 38 degrees and I would love to see the plugs after the dyno session."

Don't tell me your all huff & puff! If you are just come out with it - surely a $200 airfare is worth "seeing is believing" to you - right?

[Jamo]

Steve...are you now in the engine building business?

Just trying to keep track...maybe we can offer you a group discount when you buy some ad space.

[SFfiredog]

Crack...ker,
don't worry, you won!
You should count your blessings...
An insane defrocked Irish priest could have run into the dyno room and knocked your engine off the stand, and...
be happy that when Keith added up the dyno results he used the correct difficulty factor of 10.0 instead of 9.9... or...
you too could have been screwed out of a gold medal

[FatBoy]

Thanks for the reply Cracker.

My motor isn't a runner and I am expecting to replace pretty much everything apart from the main castings and a few other bits and bobs. It currently has a cast crank and I'm pontificating over the various merits of trying to find a steel one.
We don't have nearly as much room on our roads over here as you do, so I would have thought that something like 500bhp would be plenty (my last one had something around that figure and I never felt like I needed more power). Do I need to find a steel crank at that sort of output ?

Thanks again.
Regards
Paul

[Cracker]

Fatboy - It is my understanding that you would absolutely NOT need a steel crank for that power level. Secondly, I've been led to believe the true benefit of a steel or forged crank is reflected when spinning the motor extremely high. On that note, however, I've heard a couple "builders" claim to have used cast cranks all the way up to 8K rpm's! Someone with a better understanding will hopefully respond for you.

[HIQ]

Kudos to Keith and Cracker. Enjoy your new motor. Those are some very impressive numbers.
-I know this motor is not going to be driven often or for long distances but how many miles can one expect from a "race" motor built to these specifications?
-What would the cost of this motor be if a guy called Keith and ordered it (parts and labor)?
Thanks in advance for your answers.

[clayfoushee]

I agree that it would fill out the "complete story" to post the cost of this build-up. That way everyone would have a basis to make an informed "cost-benefit" analysis when considering various FE options (e.g. KC, Southern Automotive, Gessford, etc.).

[Keithc8]

HIQ, we are building similiar engines to this one with the Genesis blocks because we are having a problem finding the original blocks in good shape. We have built several of these engines in the 15,000.00 range with similiar power, ssome being stroker with a hydraulic roller camshaft and I see no reasone they will not last 50,000 miles like this. The only thing that is even a long term issue on Crackers engine is the solid roller lifters and springs. The valve springs might have to be changed every 5000miles and the lifters every 10,000 miles. This is why we use a lot of hydraulic rollers but they do not turn the rpm that the solids do. I do not see the big issue over how long do you want it to last. That is something that is discussed with every engine that is ordered and then it is designed with that in mind. We do this every day and that is what people pay us to do for them. Why would you build a guy an engine that was not going to last if he wanted other wise. Thanks Keith

[Jamo]

THIS thread is about the results of Keith Craft's work on Cracker's motor, and what the dynos will say.

It is NOT about Cracker.

The remainder of what used to be stuff leading up to this has been split off and is now closed.

I would suggest no comments be made about my actions here...I'm not really feeling too warm and fuzzy about any of the antagonists right now.

Talk to Keith or about what he was able to do here.

Thank you.

[Gasman]

HIQ, You are right, this motor is not going to be driven very far on an engine stand. My guess is,...it should last a long time as long as it stays there.

[Turk]

If less drum beating was to accompany every engine built by Keith Craft, none of this would happen. He is NOT the only engine builder out there, and yet we don't see another post for every engine built by others.

This Keith Craft thing has had a lot more to do with his customers than Keith himself.

Do you guys want to see a post about every David Kee transmission sold?

I got 17 shipments from Summit last year. Each one better wrapped than the other. Do you all want to hear when they arrive and how well they were wrapped?

This is why the general contempt. Can't say a whole lot good about every engine built by one builder without doing so at someone else's expense..

Many have turned it into a more technical discussion than it ought to be. It is more about the way Keith Craft and his customers scream from the top of their lungs for everything done by this one builder.

To think folks would all join in the chorus and become another member of the cheering squad is a mistake.

If you want millions of HP built for peanuts, go to Keith Craft. Rest of you are stupid. That has been the message for a long time, and frankly only ones who are cheering are the ones who had their engine built by him. Good for you.

Can you all tone the rheoteric down a little , we can't hear our less capable engines run because of the loud cheering..

This may further his accomplishments more than the bragging that goes with each engine built. Suffice it to put the HP and the torque numbers next to your name and people will be able to see it and decide for themselves.

TURK

If you disagree with me, I will rip your hearts out. I don't want to hear from anyone who may have a contrary opinion.
Respond only if you agree...

[Jamo]

I REQUESTED that discussion on this painstakenly split thread be kept to a discussion of the motor and what Keith did to it.

No more discussions about motives, approaches to posting, Cracker or anyone else.

I think I'm being clear here...is there something folks don't understand?

Turk, I would appreciate your cooperation.

Thank you.

[jwoodard]

You and I have never met, but you don't have what it takes to rip my heart out! Back down.

Keith builds far too many engines to post the results of every build.

[Jamo]

Mr. Woodard...read and heed.

Do NOT reply...I've really had enough.

[Turk]

Jooward,
The post Script is a joke .... it is a phucking joke!!!
If we have never met ...how would you know if I have what it takes or don't...

I was hoping to bring a little levity to a very grim thread(s).

Jamo,

OK.

[Edley Rondinone]

Jamo, just close it already. they could always start another thread, and I believe (imho) that this thread has now disintegrated into worthless roobish!! lol !!