Keith Craft Inc.- We service what we sell!!! Check out our Cobra engines!!! We build high performance racing engines and components for the fast pace strip racing industry as well as daily drivers who want to be FIRST!!!
I, like some of you know, have been very vocal regarding the HP & TQ claims by KCR over the last 6-9 months (as recently as last week). Therefore, I challenged Keith to a test that many of us would be interested in - a third party review of his work and comparison of his dyno vs my non-affiliated third party dyno - HE HAS ACCEPTED!!!
THE BASIS of this whole "project" is that I have a professionally build standard stroke and .010 over bore side-oiler 427 that was dynoed in August '03 and made 543 hp & 496 tq - #'s that at the time were good for an FE! Remember, the competition cars reportedly only had 525 hp in the day! Keith has agreed to the challenge so long as he can totally rebuild it HIS way (since his name is on this in a big way) and build it up from scratch - but within the guidelines outlined below to keep the comparison objective:
Engine/Build Limitations:
1) compression can't go up (currently at 11:1)
2) bore & stroke must remain the same ( 3.781 stroke/4.247 bore)
3) No hydraulic lifters can be used (currently solid flat tappet but solid roller may be used if desired)
4) The same McLeod Aluminum Flywheel to be used
5) Cam may be changed at his discretion.
6) Head work is unrestricted (they are already running big valves, 3-angle valve job, port & polish, match, etc.) on the Edelbrock heads
7) Allowed anything else that doesn't compromise long term use.
Dyno results:
1) Keith is Dynoing the motor at his shop upon completion.
2) Engine will then be re-dynoed in Atlanta to compare the previous baseline numbers of the previous build and too his dyno numbers so many a weary of - including myself.
The result of this excercise is the same displacement engine with his fingerprints on it to TRULY determine if there is a dynamic change in performance. Please recognize, my engine is built with the best equipment as a de-tuned Road Race Motor (compression & cam) and just endured an 8-month/$11K dollar rebuild last year so I'm trusting Keith to do this right. I mention this to make sure YOU understand what I have at stake in letting someone else touch this motor - I have something to lose! I feel by accepting this "challenge" Keith either comes out good or bad - results will be the judge. It is also important to disclose that Keith is attending the dyno session in Atlanta to tune but not run the dyno. This has already been approved by the race shop who supports countless numbers of NASCAR teams including Joe Gibbs racing.
I commend Keith on stepping out and putting his money where his mouth is by going through with this project. I like hundreds on Club Cobra are anxious to see the results!
To be fare to Keith I've told him (and this OBVIOUS) that I'm one of his most outspoken critics of the HP claims but based upon MY engine builders dyno and in comparison to his, should this engine improve dramatically within the above guidelines I WILL become a CHEERLEADER of his technology and services. As they say in the ring "Let's get ready to rumble!!!". Okay, a little dramatic but I can't wait to see the results! Engine is on the way to KCR and updates will be posted promptly.
snakebit - First of all no one is looking for 100 more HP out of this engine with the limitations set forth. Kieth initially said it should be making 75-100 hp more than what I have so I choose the lesser of the two and he agreed.
Whats the point? I let him ultimately set the parameters of performance increases. Go back and read the initial post and you'll see where I wrote, "should this engine improve dramatically within the above guidelines I WILL become a CHEERLEADER of his technology and services. " clearly defines my expectation NOT to be 800 HP. Anyone else who would expect that would be a MORON! Obviously your just using a wild example to prove a point but the reality is a true non stroked or enlarged 428 ci engine that makes 600+ on pump gas within the requirements impresses me! It often takes alot more cubes to pull that off. Should the poll reflect 600 hp instead of 625 listed? Probably. However, I was once again basing it off what Keith said.
It has nearly 550 hp now - minor changes 600 very possible - 625 hp means I'm a cheerleader! We'll see.
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham 427 brushed aluminum with Keith Craft 527C.I. all aluminum FE
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I would like to bring everyone up to date. I will be done with the engine I hope this week with results toward the end of the week or next week. We stay about 40 engines behind so I had to work this project in. I was not trying to offend anyone or any other engine builders by posting or building these engines. As I said before I saw a lot of people paying a lot of money for under powered engines. 20,000.00 to 25,000.00 for a street driven FE engine, heck I said there is some mon ey to be made hear and deliver a better product. I know some people are mad and do not want to believe they spent that kind of money on an engine that is making 100HP less than it should.
This engine of crackers will be streetable and idle at 800 to 900 rpms and last for several years with no problems. This is not that big of a camshaft because when you lash it you end up with a camshaft that is about 250@.050. I have also built several small block engines for Cobras that made maximum HP at 7200 to 7500 and the customers always drove them on the street.
Dave Rodacks car is street driven all the time and he drives it to the track and run 10.20s at 139mph and this is with a hyraulic roller and pump gas. You guys will not believe because you do not want to believe. I also have one customer with a 700HP engine ina 67 Fairlane that does nothing but drive it on the street and in Texas with no over heating problems.
As far as the CNC heads we hand port a port to get it where we want it flow wise and then digitize that port. We will cut the port and then flow it to see if it does what the hand ported port does. We can also make changes to the port with our software. We also have 3 different port designs and many different valve jobs depending on the use of the heads. We keep adding port designs for all types of heads to our library.
Once again this engine of Crackers is not a race engine, they make much more power than this. It does not matter because there are certain people that will not believe no matter what you do. Just bringing a better FE to the market place for the same money people are already spending, if that is bad I am sorry.
We hold to many National Records for my Dyno to be of very far. Redc Leblanc engine just finished, 428 Super Stock engine, cast iron heads, stock compression, stock stroke. 060 bore, Dove single 4bl intake and the original vacume secondary carburetor. 575 ft/lbs torque and 745HP. All engine builders are not the same. Oh it did this at 7500RPM and still making 740HP at 8000. Shift at 8100 and just ran 9.65 in a 3350lb 69 Mustang in the 90 degree weather. Just thought this was interesting, do the math the Dyno is correct because in sea level weather this car will go 9.40s at 141MPH, he ran 138mph in Memphis this weekend.
Cracker hopes to have you some results soon just had to get some engines done that have been hear for a few months. Hang in there, Keith
First of all I have to say I'm impressed with Keith's level of conscientiousness regarding this build. Regardless of the power on the other dyno I appreciate his willingness to upgrade & shore-up this motor when there was no "requirement nor understanding" to take it to the "next" level - Thank you Keith!
Dyno conditions:
Barometer - 29.62
Humidity @ 60%, 400 rpm's per second - "other" dyno will be same
Fuel: 50/50 mix w/ VP Red & Premium mix (same as baseline pulls)
My initial thoughts regarding power delivery is that it is achieved lower than I expected at only 7,000 rpm's. Keith earlier had told me to expect peak hp at around 7,300 rpm's but it only ended up adding an aditional 700 rpm's to the previous builds peak hp rpm - impressive! Overall, the increase in power is 111 hp & 60 lb. tq. while lowering the idle & reducing the compression ratio .6 of a point (11.5:1 to start & ended at 10.9:1) w/ bore & stroke identical.
I am trying to work a date out in the next couple of weeks to run on the "other" dyno. Keith is coming to tune it there and I'm sure many are interested in those results as well - thanks for everyone's patience and the biggest "thank you" to Keith for following through and handling it with class!
Cobra Make, Engine: I like Cobras, but I'm here for the FE stuff...
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While peak power moved up 700 rpm, note that it's already making more power at 5,300 rpm than the previous version made at its 6,300 peak! (And it now has less compression, which is significant given the number of times "you need big compression to make big power" occurs throughout the thread.)
Cobra Make, Engine: Original ERA 427sc, Powered by Gessford
Posts: 2,678
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Cracker-
Those numbers are very impressive, no wonder you're so excited
Question, do you know what kind of power it made in the 2500-5000 rpm range? I know you were concerned with peak numbers, but I'm just curious what kind of hp/tq that cam made in the "street driven" rpm ranges.
Look forward to seeing the results of part 2 of this test on the "other" dyno. After all, that will answer once and for all whether KC's dyno #s are legit, which is what I think lead to this exercise in the first place.
Congrats again.
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Replica is not a dirty word.
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning."
Yes, very impressive. But, I'd love to hear a follow-up, whenever, on how many miles it has on it before it's done again. Notice I didn't say, before it grenades. I'm giving everyone the benefit of the doubt here.
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF1670 Stroked Little Windsor - Runs OK.
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Yes, I have to agree.
So, Mr. Craft...you have wowed us with the FE, what my friend, can you do with a 351C???
There are undoubtedly millions of people out there saying "he can't get 500 horsepower out of a stock stroke Cleveland with 2-bolt mains and original iron heads and make it last 10K miles. He is just completely incapable of doing it."
Think of the millions of people you could convince, Keith. I happen to know a couple of guys who would probably let you consult them or even use their motor as a guinea pig.
I can put you in touch if you want.
JP....bringing people together
__________________ J.P.
Ohio Cobra Club
Token Gashole
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham 427 brushed aluminum with Keith Craft 527C.I. all aluminum FE
Posts: 992
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Rdorman I believe the heads in this case to be worth about 50HP because we did not touch the intake at all. The intake was gasket matched already and I believe that was all it need for this application. The heads were pretty stock except for some mild bowl work and gasket matching, they did already have the 2.19/1.75 valves. I would say we picked the heads up about 60 cfm intake and about 50 cfm exhaust.
MidOHasp we do 351C heads and have for years. We still do these for the NHRA guys and have set several national records in the past with the 351C engine. Not a problem to do you some very nice heads. Thanks and good luck, Keith
Just why can't we have a complete dyno sheet ever?
No temps
No Vapor pressure
Stout VE's
400 rpm's per sec
40 degrees timing on a big block?
Why just the high rpm summary? Planning oval track racing?
Sunshine hates to sound cloudy so why not just post the whole deal so there is nothing left to anyones immagination.
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF1670 Stroked Little Windsor - Runs OK.
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Because imagination is the spice of this whole thing.
Don't be cloudy! Be sunny!
All funnin' aside, would you have preferred a slower pull or a faster pull? I can't identify anomalies in the dyno sheet in the VE, VP, etc... columns but I do know pull speed has an effect. Just curious.
__________________ J.P.
Ohio Cobra Club
Token Gashole
It does have an effect but I do not remember which way or why. I will ask my builder tomorrow.
Regardless, we still need all the other info to make a real judgement.
I have never seen a 427 run more than 38 degrees and I would love to see the plugs after the dyno session.
The more efficient the motor, the less the need for advance. My 427 ran 32 and my cup motor runs 32. 40 sound dangerous to me but I guess there are a lot of other variables to this story.
Please have the whole sheet with all the columns posted.
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham 427 brushed aluminum with Keith Craft 527C.I. all aluminum FE
Posts: 992
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CSX427 the dyno software will only print so many items on each sheet or so many readings per sheet. If you will call me at 870-246-7460 I will pull any of the things you want to know in the computer for you.
The reason for the 32 degrees on the cup style engine is that they have a much more effeceint chamber and plug location. The Yates heads only like about 30 degrees timing as well as the Ford Racing N-351 heads. I did not design the FE 427 chamber, they were run the way they cam from Edelbrock with the stock chamber and plug location. The camshaft design, where it is installed in the engine, head flow as well as wet flow in the chamber will affect the timing and most of the FEs we do will run b etween 38 and 42 degrees timing depending on the chamber size and the other things I listed. Take a factory open chamber 351C head, it will like about 46 degrees with this kind of compression. Take the timing from 38 to 46 and you will pick up about 30 HP or .2 in the quarter.
The air temp was about 85 if I remember right and I will have to check on the vapor pressure. The VE was so high because of the air flow through the carburetor for a 428C.I engine. I believe this 940cfm at about 7200rpms. Have any other questions feel free to call or I can give you some references that have used our dyno and they can tell you about their ets, its that simple.
Like I said before we did this deal there will be those that don't believe, don't care and don't know. Keith
Keith Craft takes the Challenge!
Remember, the competition cars reportedly only had 525 hp in the day! Keith has agreed to the challenge so long as he can totally rebuild it HIS way (since his name is on this in a big way) and build it up from scratch - but 
I feel by accepting this "challenge" Keith either comes out good or bad - results will be the judge. It is also important to disclose that Keith is attending the dyno session in Atlanta to tune but not run the dyno. This has already been approved by the race shop who supports countless numbers of NASCAR teams including Joe Gibbs racing.
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