How much HP for $40K?

[ERA Chas]

Keith,
On All Cobra Talk, a thread is running which made mention of a "$40K" engine.
Without heavy specifics, in a max effort build, please estimate the power level you might achieve in an FE for this $um.
As an example, Ray Barton makes 900+ in a stroker Hemi for $20-22K.
yes, I know we're talking FE here.
Thank you,

[blykins]

How much do you want? I really don't think the emphasis is on horsepower here.....it's gonna be how bulletproof it is.

A Nextel Cup engine "only" makes around 800-830hp.....but costs $30-40k.

However, it can make this horsepower and spin at around 7000-9000 rpm for the length of a race.

But back to my first question....what are you shooting for? 1000? 2000?

[ERA Chas]

Bly,
I understand your misunderstanding, but that was not the intent of my question.
We knpw that Keith can comfortably make 650-700+ FE HP, at considerably LESS expense.
One can probably buy 1200-1500 in a race-only alchol or power-adder type motor, for 40 large.
Pro stock or promod motors aren't TOO much higher.
The point of my question to Keith is that I think our friend Dwayne is being disadvantaged by his engine guy as well as Roy Hunt.
Just want to hear a pro's thoughts on the subject.[Away from the "illness" thread where this would be inappropriate.]

[Hotfingrs]

30-40k for a Nextel Cup engine....Roush charges 150k to lease an engine for a seaon, and you break it, you fix it. He's in the 1,000k range to outright buy one.

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by Hotfingrs


30-40k for a Nextel Cup engine....Roush charges 150k to lease an engine for a seaon, and you break it, you fix it. He's in the 1,000k range to outright buy one.

1000k! One Million Dollars for an engine? How? Why? What can you do to a small block engine that makes it worth a million bucks? Seems like a lot of those Rousch mills bit the dust this past season, do Cup engines come with a warranty?

[Keithc8]

I am going to assume we are talking about a normaly aspirated engine. With a turbo or blower you could make 2000HP as we do with the small block.
We have built a few FE engines that made in the 850 to 875 HP range that cost about 30,000.00. These were single 4bl Dominator carburetor engines. I believe with some of the heads we have to work with now and about 510 to 527 C.I. with a sheet metal intake and 2X4 induction we could make 950HP. I would take this challenge for 40,000.00 but I have had no one offer this kind of money.
Hope this helps answer your question. Thanks, Keith Craft

[Clois Harlan]

I believe if anyone can get the best bang for your buck Keith can. That being said I know where there is an 850 hp 427 cammer SOHC normally aspirated engine right now you can buy for $20,000.00. If you want one that is blown the same person has that too but you will need to add another $10,000.00 and be willing to cut a hole in your Cobra's hood.

You can't effectively use that much HP in these things unless you are willing limit your drives to a quarter mile in 8 1/2 second increments.

Clois

[CowtownCobra]

The $40k engine in question came out of Shelby in LV, and was tweeked by Kroyers. At that level it isn't the horsepower, but the pedigree and who has "layed hands" on the thing that counts. Believe what KC is telling you...

[Ibr8k4vetts]

Originally posted by southernfriedcj


1000k! One Million Dollars for an engine? How? Why? What can you do to a small block engine that makes it worth a million bucks? Seems like a lot of those Rousch mills bit the dust this past season, do Cup engines come with a warranty?

I think he ment 100K
Mike

[Hotfingrs]

I made a mistake in the Roush engines. It's not Roush that charges that much for an engine, it's Grumpy Jenkins, and the pro-stock engines he builds. This was in an article one of the mags did on Jenkins that came out last summer.

The 1,000K figure was right, as was the 150k to lease an engine. One thing I did forget, all the lease engines have to be turned in at the end of the season. I remember reading this article during this past summer. When I heard 150k to lease an engine, I said to myself....why not just buy one, then I saw the price he wanted to buy one outright.

[Excaliber]

When I questioned the price of the $40K motor on the "Dwaynes Dieing" thread I caught a lot of hell for talking about "price". Mostly from a couple of the a$$hole gasholes. Who claim that $40K is certainly possible for an FE engine build.

I guess you could spend a $100K on your engine build as far as that goes, the idiots missed the point. It's NOT normal, it's NOT average.

There are apporximatly 6000 plus CC members. Of those what percentage MAY have spent $40K on their FE?

1%? Less or more? Is there even ONE other person who has?

When someone, ANYONE claims to have spent $40K on his motor THAT is "news", don't care who or how it was said, it IS an extraordinary event.

Some suggested this was possible because the "base motor" (Shelby FE) would run $25 to $30K (which I also stated). It was said a "fancy induction" could run another $10K, agreed.

WHAT fancy induction would that be? The freakin' motor pictures show a SINGLE naturally aspirated four barrel carb.

Conclusion: $40K for a Shelby motor with a single carb is solid evidence of BIG wallet and a small brain (dieing or not). Logic goes out the window, go on pure emotion (and phuck over anyone who doesn't agree with you).

As Jamo once said,
"Phuck 'em, phuck 'em all." I deleted my Gashole account, as I don't want to be associated with the arrogant, illogical and mean spirited Pat Buckley in anyway!

Not so sure about CC as far that goes, The Shelby "legend" for me is totally tarnished I may well sell my ERA because of this latest debacle. Don't want to be associated with C.S. either!

[PatBuckley]

Bye.

[TerrysSPF]

C'mon guys, it's the Holidays!

Excal: I was right with you on questioning the amount Dwayne spent on his engine. I figured that Roy Hunt from Finish Line gave his buddies down the road a call and told them there was a guy coming down with a larger heart & wallet than a brain (heck, it isn't Dwayne's fault....I think this is his 1st Cobra / engine build and may not have known any better) and to be "ready for him". I thought I was well within the boundry lines of the topic but Jamo thought otherwise and I discontinued posting about it (I also thought twice about how Dwayne would feel if he ever read his post topic and saw that not only did people feel he was getting the shaft from FL but a lot thought he paid too much for his engine as well). To me, the topic wasn't just about how Dwayne was getting screwed by Finish Line because of the length of time it was taking to get his Cobra, but that the guy was getting SCREWED......period. That included: length of time of the build, cost of build, and cost of engine.
Normally when someone wants to drop that kind of money on a Cobra they do some "homework" first. I don't know how much Dwayne did (if any). I think the purchase was strictly "emotionally" based. I also believe that "time" itself may have been a large factor; he may have believed he didn't have the time to do his homework due to his illness.
But, to each their own. A "deal" was struck between all parties and Dwayne must have felt comfortable. How much he spent is nobody's business. Can we question it on an open forum? Sure. But it doesn't change anything and it doesn't get Dwayne his car any faster. I'm just hopeful that what is taking place "behind the scenes" is doing some good. If the car isn't completed by FL by the 15th however (especially knowing that the Kirkhams would have had it done by now) I would say that it's going to be a free-for-all here and that Mr. Hunt should head south.

[TerrysSPF]

BTW........just for comparison sake. He's a all alum Shelby engine that a buddy of mine owns. It includes some of the best parts money can buy and it was no where near 40K. In fact, it wasn't even close to 30K.

527 cid Shelby big bore block 4.380 bore
LA Enterprises Billet Crank 4.375 stroke (diamond polished - the best, strongest, lightest drag racing crank currently in existence)
Lunatti Billet rods
JE forged custom pistons
Custom grind hydraulic roller cam
Titanium valves & retainers
CNC stage 3 heads
T&D rockers
Polished Victor intake
Polished Edelbrock HV water pump
DaVinci 950 carb
Shelby valve covewrs
Polished custom big tube SS headers & sidepipes.

Over 740HP (I think Dwaynes was rated in the low 600HP range)

[Turk]

Ernie,
Didn't the customer select the engine and the engine builder?
Didn't even Kris Kincaid who is not a Shelby fan at this point explain how and why an engine from that outfit COULD cost $40,000.

I think you ARE being a little unfair. It was the customer who opted for an expensive engine.

My last two engines cost me in mid $20s each, and they were modest and mild engines.

Custom crank, titanium valves, expensive rockers and few other goodies CAN run the price that high. EIther way, the engine was quoted, and built by someone else.NOT by Shelby.

I would be willng to bet there are others who paid that and more for an FE engine.
If the percentages are lower than you think, it doesn't mean someone is getting ripped off. It means they are getting what they wanted.

I have seen folks spend in excess of $40,000 doing an engine( especially a FE) twice or three times trying to get it right.

As you are fully aware, the reliable shops who can do one right can only be counted on one hand.

As for your comment "a$$hole Gasholes". Not cool.
Until you decided to get tangled with one of our members, you were having way too much fun there with a few thousand posts.To label the rest of the people as "A$$holes" is probably not very accurate since you had no problem interacting with all of them for months.

TURK

[Turk]

Terry,
By your own admision your friend has $30K in his engine using SOME of the best parts.
What would that engine cost if it only had NOTHING but the best parts?

Some shops charge more for their time, skills, dyno times, and engineering. Can it be done for less? Probably.

Somehow as expensive as a $40,000 engine is I don't believe it is theft, rip off or anything of the sort. Just an expensive engine at a very expensive facility.

Who are we to tell Dwayne, he could have saved a few bucks and could have gotten something less expensive.

I have never heard anything bad about that shop. If they have three dynos, and a chassis dyno all under one roof, it is probably not your average shade tree mechanic.

I think we are being very harsh on someone for having an engine built for $40K, and in the process making the shop who built this engine look like they ripped someone off.

[Excaliber]

Apply some LOGIC here which is missing most of the time.

Kris pointed out the motor COULD run $40K with a fancy INDUCTION system, not a single four barrel.

Average cost for an FE? $40K is to much for 1% of the CC membership. Make that .5%, wait, I think THATS to high.

Dwayne can spend whateve he wants, anybody else can to, none of my business and more power to them. It's not by any means "normal" or "average" or "common" to spend $40K.

It is illogical that some gasholes thought I was "bragging" when I said I was "bummed" I may spend as much as $4K on the parts for my FE. I am bummed!

I COULD have simply replaced the cam and lifters for $400 and be done with it! I CHOOSE to go with new pistons, bearings, some cool parts, etc. SOME people might be interested in HOW my 427 side oiler rebuild is coming along. I thought it might help some members of the community to know.

The critical mass of gasholes not only expressed ZERO interest, I was beaten up for even mentioning anything about my motor. Why is that? Jealousy perhaps? Not conforming, not doing it "their way"? Not using THEIR people and spending BUCKETS of money in the process, like most of the gasholes do?

I'm doing my build myself, no brag, just FACT. And I'm doing it for a few thousand, so what? I'll spend what I want, you guys spend what you want.

There are a number of gasholes I would welcome in my home, a small number.

I appreciate the help I HAVE received from a few, sick of the constant bickering I HAVE received from MOST.

I said once I was honored to sit at the feet of the masters of engine building and learn. Such builders we find here and on gasholes (and Pat B. AINT one of them). But make no mistake, I AM a skilled and competent mechanic, no brag just fact. ASE certified Ford and Chrysler line mechanic for years. A "fact" I rarely mentioned, if I've mentioned it at all.

To hell with "being humble" I got shafted anyway! Some could have learned from ME, an exchange of ideas is the best thing about these forums. But often they chose not to listen. YOUR loss, not mine.

Besides DV and the Kirkhams is their anybody the gasholes HAVEN'T blasted lately (not to mention FFR)?

I respect and admire DV and the Kirkhams, I am proud to count them as my friends. I am ashamed of how they have been "talked about" and "falsely accused" of various wrong doing. I am in good company and feel honored to suffer the slings and arrows of contempt thrown their way and mine.

Falsely accused? Yes, because the accusations leveled against them are often devoid of any "logic". In typical style these accusations are LONG on emotion and SHORT on common sense.

While I appreciate the gashole humor (most of the time) there IS a dark and ugly side when it becomes clear, it aint always "funny", it's just as often "mean".

I prefer peace myself...

[computerworks]

If you all take a peek upwards, you will see that the is the Keith Craft Racing Forum.

ERA Chas asked KC a question by starting this thread; KC answered.

Ernie...
If you want to question Kroyers' price, I suggest you go do it in the FE Forum.
Go settle your Gashole issues on that site.
Go settle your a$$hole issues off-line.

Manufacturer's forums are not the place for that.

Thanks
Ron
ClubCobra Moderator