Help me Understand

[Whatif]

Hey Keith,

I am planning the engine for my next project. I have been keeping close tabs on your posts of your various all aluminum 427's.

I really want an engine that will put down at *least* 600hp SAE to the rear tires through a 6 speed tranny -- all motor, no spray/blower/turbo.

I dont want to get into a Chevy versus Ford pissing match but Reher Morrison does some very nice complete engines (carb to oil pan with solid roller cams) for well under $20,000. There are other well known builders doing the same thing.

http://www.rehermorrison.com/

I dont understand why the Fords 427's are up in the $25,000, $30,000, and even higher dollar range. Sure you have to add about $4000 for the aluminum block -- but even still it seems like high quality engines from builders like Reher Morrison are easily half that of the Fords.

What is the reason for this? Most of the parts are similarly priced and the labor would be about the same I would assume.

On a side note -- have you done any blown or turbocharged engines for any Cobras? It seems like folks are really getting big power with forced induction now-a-days and that might be a better way to get 700-800-900hp without having an overly radical engine.

I appreciate the feedback.

Mark

[Burgs]

I'm not Keith, and I'm sure he'll jump in but,...you know,....

for $16,995.00 you can get an all aluminum FE, carb to oil pan, w/hyd. roller cam, 625 ftlb / 625-640 hp, dyno tested and tuned. That should be around 550 at the wheels, all motor, on pump gas, in a Cobra,.....

Is that close enough?

[Burgs]

Oh yea, and the blower/turbo built motor, hell that's easy. The hard part is finding a big enough shoe horn.

[LwCwb]

Mark, FE's cost so much more because there are less manufactures making parts for them, hence the additional cost. FE's are also a lot harder to build than most other engines (from what I hear anyways.)

Earl (EarlsFlyinCobra) is building a turbocharged 302 and putting it in a street beasts replica.

[1962SuperStock]

Also note those crate engines on the R-M web site are north of 14:1 compression. The KC engines you've read about for Cobras are 10.5:1 for pump gas.

[Whatif]

1

[Sizzler]

The simple answer is that you're into the Apples vs Oranges thing.

598 cubic inch engines being compared to an FE?? Come on.

The biggest FE you'll get is around 527 cubic inches, and most will be in the high 400 cubic inch range. Displacement counts too you know, not just compression. You're comparing an engine with something like 20% more displacement than an FE, and complaining about the FE's slightly lower HP??

If you want a cheap Ford 598 engine I think you want to be looking at a Lima-series engine, not an FE.

Costs? I don't think the offerings from KC and others are out of line, price-wise, with what you're seeing for the bow-tie varieties.

[Whatif]

I am not complaining about anything Sizzler. Did you read *anything* that I posted?

Lots of folks -- Ford, Dodge, Chrysler, etc -- are building 500+ cubic inch pump gas motors making 700-800hp. I am just trying to understand why it cost so much more to do an FE.

My post was to Keith. Feel free to post your comments but please try to post some facts that show why the FE costs 50-100% more to build and not some BS reply that simply says "They just do -- deal with it".

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the fact it costs more -- I just want to know why. Is there anything wrong with that? The parts seem fairly comparible at places like Jegs and Summit.

Mark

[Keithc8]

I just know have seen this post, been busy at work and have not looked in a while. The reason for the cost difference in the BB Chevy engines and the FE Ford engines is mainly in the cost of the parts. When you can get all the parts cheaper it helps. The engines you talk about will use Eagle crank and rods a lot, the blocks are cheaper, lot of heads to choose from. We do some BB Chevy engines every once in a while. Just did an all aluminum one for a good friend that made about 1100HP and only cost about 24,000.00.
The parts are getting cheaper for the FE engines and with high compression and solid roller camshaft you can now build a 800HP FE for about 18,000.00. Just depends on the parts used. I can buy a BB Chevy steel crank for 600.00 but they cost about 2200.00 for a FE because no one makes a cheap steel Chinese crank yet and we have to get a billet, much nicer but more money. Hope this helps a little. Thanks, Keith

[Excaliber]

Sounds like supply and demand at work, as has always been the case with GM vs Ford.

Chev really got a jump start in 1955 with the 265 small block V8. It took Ford almost 10 years to finally come up with a decent small block design. To late, by then parts were readily available for the GM V8 and that engine had a lot more development time. It was THAT GM small block that set the standards, good or bad.

When the FE came out in what, '59? It wasn't "that great" an engine, and race parts were hard to come by (and BIG money). It took years and years for the 302 small block to get mass produced enough to finally be able to get cost competitve race parts, compared to GM small block. Racing ANY Ford engine has always cost more than a comparable Chev (I hate that)!

It hasn't been "that long" since good race parts for the FE came along, and they will never begin to match the production numbers of Chev big blocks out there. Hence there will never be a day when it is cheaper to build Ford than GM.

[sgianino]

Hi Keith ,
What is the best time to reach you by phone?

ERA 671
496 C.I. Shelby Block
Just to refresh your mind

Thanks Sal Gianino

[Clois Harlan]

Just for comparison I am building a 427 FE right now. I paid $2800.00 for a used block that could go standard but I opted to pucnch it out to .017 over because I didn't like the clearances I would have to live with. A used billet steel crank turned at .10
/.010 cost about $900.00. Wiseco 12.7 : 1 compression ration aluminium pistons $600.00. Eagle H-Beam Rods are under $700.00, Rings, bearings, etc are another $300.00. Cam $200.00. Machining, balancing, assembly, and run in will set you back another $1200-$2000.00. So there is a short block with no pan or gaskets and you are just under $7000.00.

Heads (Blue Thunder or Edelbrock) with manley valves, Comp matched dual springs figure between $1500-$3000.00 depending on how much you want to clean up the heads. Roller rockers (Sig Erson) another $600.00. Push rods and mechanical lifters another $300.00. Aluminium Intake sidewinder $500.00 and 850 Race Demon Carb $800.00. You are going to need a MSD distributor, coil, wires, and box $575.00. You will surely want a Canton or Aviad oil pan at $350.00 and probably a blue printed oil pump at $125.00. Got to have a water pump so how about an Aluminium Edelbrock at $175.00. Valves covers at $200.00 and March pulleys will go for another $250.00 or so. Don't forget gaskets the cost more than Chevies too probably around $200.00 and then there will be miscellaneous other costs such as ARP bolts for your heads and crank then little more here and there. So you add everything up and you have it for $13-15,000.00 and you have more horsepower than most of us can handle at the wheels. As you know prices may vary according to regions of the country. The one thing I know for sure is: If someone has never built an FE before the engine will be only as good as the machinist. Sometimes it doesn't pay to skrimp.

Running an FE is a choice, and for some of us a sacrafice, but it is the Right Thing to Do!

Sorry to be such a smart ARSE but this argument is like comparing apples to oranges. Old tech to new tech. Chevy has kept basically the same engines for almost 50 years. Development on the FE stopped over 30 years ago.


Clois

[sgianino]

Keith ?? Are you out there ??

Sal

[Keithc8]

Sal give ma call at the shop between 9:00 and 6:00 Monday through Friday at 870-246-7460 or you can call me at home if you would like, 870-246-8287. Thanks, Keith

[Bluedog]

I have heard many times that you really need to know what you are doing to build an FE. However, I have never seen a specific explanation on why an FE is any harder to build than any other type of engine. I can understand if it takes some special tools but come on, it's a 40 year old design. Is it a myth, part of the mystique, or the mechanics...inquirying minds want to know?

Realistically, if someone has built SBs before and had an FE book, could they successfully do a reliable "high performing" FE?

Thx,
Bluedog

[Excaliber]

I'm rebuilding mine right now. I've rebuilt quite a few motors in my life, former line mechanic for Ford and Chrysler. I figured like you, whats the big deal, how different could it be?

Well it HAS been an education! One of the problems is because the motors ARE so old, which means theres a good chance nothing is "stock" anymore! My block was bored .017, which I thought was odd, .020-30 some even number would be "normal". But NO, not for an FE, seems that .003 increments are "normal" (how bizzare is that, ). Due to the thin wall construction of the block cylinders.

There are a great variety of "parts" that interchange with the FE blocks, just identifying YOUR specific pieces can be a struggle. I'm using a 428 externally balanced crank, as opposed to the internally balanced 427 crank. Mine is a 1U (I had to research that to figure out WHAT it meant).

When I measured the piston pin hieght (compression hieght) it was NOT at all what I expected, the block had been "decked". And the push rods were "odd", real SHORT from "standard" length (under 9"). That even had George scratching his head (Gessford machine) and he KNOWS side oilers! Come to find out my rocker stands had been milled to allow for (guessing here):
1. Clearance for the valve covers?
2. Short push rods mean less valve train "harmonics" problems?

Some interesting "extra" machine work done internally to the block, chamfered oil holes and such. The motor clearances were on the "loose" side for most everything. My theory? Whoever built the motor last knew what he was doing, and built it "loose" for more horse power (667 horse to be exact).

It's going back together with custom pistons (down to 9.8 to 1 c.r. from 12.5 to 1) and a much milder cam. Tighter clearances too, built to "last" and for the "street". This is the "trickest" motor I've ever built, you can't take ANYTHING for granted with these old motors, this aint no "off the shelf" 302!

I thought this was funny:
When I first took the block into the machine shop to have it cleaned and "double check" the measurements I had all ready taken myself they called and said, "Your block is .017 overbore, we should bore it to a standard .020, OK?" Ha ha, I told them .017 WAS standard, they were like "no way", but it IS "standard".

[RACER X #99]

Very interesting, Clois and Excaliber are going in complete opposite directions.

[Clois Harlan]

My engine will spend most of it's time on a race track and very little time cruising. My intentions are to raise my RPM threashold and run higher gears on the longer tracks (3.25 : 1).

My first FE was built by a shop in OKC that didn't know FE engines and it was junk (wasted good parts because machinist didn't know what area's to bevel, relive, etc.). I have seen Keith Crafts engines perform and they are very strong and dependabe as are George Andersons and a few others like them. These guys know what they are doing and because of that they are entitled to charge a premium for their services. There are tricks to the trade but their levels of skill are irreplaceable. You know the old saying "Pay me now or Pay me later", holds true.

Clois

PS-I am thinking of lower my compression down to 12 : 1 with piston modifications.

[Excaliber]

I considered a couple of ways to reduce theC.R. Thick head gaskets for instance. You can get .100 thick or more! Or, maybe just go with some Edelbrock heads with large combustion chambers, that would also lower the weight from my iron heads, a double benefit.

But in the end I really like my original high riser heads AND they match my original 2X4 intake. Yup Clois is going one way and I'm going the other, that is interesting! I plan to do some road racing, hence I'm getting a good road race oil pan setup too.

[Keithc8]

I do believe any good engine builder and or engine machinist could build a FE engine. Most people think when they take a engine apart and have all of those parts machine and then re-assemble the same parts they have done a rebuild and they have, but when you want to make good HP with a FE you better know the weak points and what needs to be midified. If you want a 400 to 500HP FE engine it is no big deal but if you want a 650 to 850 FE engine you better know a little bit about these engines. Most people do not know enough about oiling systems, clearances, camshafts, valvetrain geometry, head preperation and assembling an engine with parts that never came together. When all the machine work is done right, parts balanced, the right parts picked out and checked then it is a lot easier to build. I have people that want us to machine everything, balance assembly, do the heads, check bearing clearances, check piston to valve clearance and tell them where to degree the camshaft, figure out valve train geometry, mill the intake to fit, figure the compression, gap rings and then take apart the stuff we checked and give them all of the parts so they can say they assembled the engine like it iis a big deal after that is all done, but if they are happy I am happy. Some times they get it together right and it cost about the same amount when we do this. There are differences in engines, just like we have done several LS1 and Modular engines and they are very different than some of this earlier stuff.
We are even using a proflomometer {not sure I spelled that right} to check the cylinder finish for proper ring seal. Things have changed, this thing set me back about 2300.00 and you have to check every cylinder in the block. Just when I think it should get easier it keeps getting harder. Nothing 500,000 to 1,000,000 won't fix if you want to do everything right. Good luck to everyone on all of there projects and if you hear of anyone that would like to do this engine thing full time I will sell them a turn key set up, I couldn't get that lucky. Keith