Vote 428 or aluminum 427FE??

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

"Soul" is what makes you smile when you open the hood, when it comes to motors. For some that means an alloy block, for others, a more period correct piece is the way to go. It's also about the dollars for some of us, I can do an iron block for considerably less money that a Shelby block, and that makes me smile when I open the hood.

x2. Well said. Anything that improves enjoyment of ownership is the right answer.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

$7,000 grand for heads, YIKES!!!! Now throw in another $5,000 or more for the big Webers for the beast. Dam, bring a BIG wallet to that party, we still gotta build the block this stuff will bolt onto to.

KC was advertising a complete all aluminum SOHC engine for $39 or $40K, but it was really filled with all top notch parts.

[Excaliber]

Hey, "rumor has it" is my trademark saying, leaves a little wiggle room or sometimes it's just tongue in cheek. Obviously it's tongue in cheek when I'm also saying you CAN make 1,500 horse with a Shelby block. Not that any regular's around CC will ever go there, "we" rarely exceed 600 horse. An original side oiler can easily reach that AND live to tell about it!

Mine made 667 horse, open headers, original parts, dual carbs. The only major modern component was the solid roller cam. Le Mans rods, 428 crank, standard bore, 12.5 to 1 compression, 1964 intake and heads (from an orignial T-Bolt car), 7,000 plus rpm. Near "period correct" if you would! Rumor has it, Dick Smith was making similiar horse power with his side oiler when he drove it to near 200 mph.

Did it live? A MODERN roller lifter let go between 8,000 and 9,000 miles! The internals looked remarkable. The rod and main bearings, bore, pistons, block all good. No cracks, scratches, dings hit or misses. I reused all the original internals with the exception of new forged pistons to reduce the 12.5 to 1 compression ratio. Added a flat tappet cam of similiar grind you could have found "back in the day".

I don't know what the upper limit of horse power is with an original side oiler block, the same block the SOHC motor used. What kind of power did THEY make? For the most part, that limit is higher than most of us would ever build to.

Folks talk about how tough the small block Chevies were/are as well. BUT, there was no end to the number of blown small block GM engines to be found laying around, "back in the day". Simple reason: Folks ran 'em hard, they were used extensively for racing, like the side oilers (which didn't come in your Fathers Ford)! If you had one of them it was for racing and exploring the limits at place's like NASCAR and Le Mans and the local drag strips, peddal to the metal. Big difference today with the Shelby blocks is that, by far, most of them are for used for a good hard Saturday afternoon "cruise". All though, I have no doubt they would hold up well in a true hard core racing environment. Just like the original side oilers did!

[RodKnock]

Just a matter of time Ernie. You used to "wax poetically" about your toploader too. Just a matter of time and money.

Remember the removal 100-125 lbs equals "X" amount of HP too.

Bottom line for me. If I want to make 600+ reliable "stress-free" HP, contact one of the reputable engine builders and order an engine with a CSX or Pond aluminum block.

[ng8264723]

I would rather have an iron block in a street car. Barry from survival recomended iron to me. You really don't need to save 125 pounds off a 2300 pound car with 550-600HP. I will handle fine the way it is. Also a toploader is much stronger than a tremec. I wanted the fifth gear which is why I went with the tremec.
chris

[vector1]

i'd use what you currently have in parts. 1 or 2 pts. compression is not going to make or break anything, more forgiving on the tune, use any gas, still more then enough hp/tq for a 2200# car if put together correctly. with a lightweight flywheel and clutch i'd enjoy the drive anyday.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

I would ask "How are you going to drive it?". That, plus the available $$ would give you the answer you look for. If you just want to enjoy your Cobra with some 'spirited' driving, then the 428 stroker is more than enough. If you want to go up against the big guys on track day, then the all-out aluminum 427 is the way to go. What I don't see here is your desire for the 'bragging rights' that a Shelby 427 has. Myself, I prefer the iron block 427 or 428.

[Bernica]

Let's not forget that Ford did have an aluminum 427 back in the day. Rare, yes.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ng8264723

I would rather have an iron block in a street car. Barry from survival recomended iron to me. You really don't need to save 125 pounds off a 2300 pound car with 550-600HP. I will handle fine the way it is. Also a toploader is much stronger than a tremec. I wanted the fifth gear which is why I went with the tremec.
chris

There's no doubt that Barry R loves Genesis blocks and if anyone is going to buy one, then they should get it from him or Keith Craft not directly from Genesis. Barry R runs Genesis blocks exclusively (or it seems) in his Engine Masters entries. However, the OP asked the question should he build his 428 or get a CSX block.

At the time that I was shopping, a Genesis cast iron block was right around $3,800 +/-. I paid $5,500 with the special head studs. At the time, I felt the extra money was a "rounding error" when I built my Kirkham and the weight savings was huge factor for me. It's like a adult female model sitting on the front of your car.

Where does one stop with the installation of aluminum parts? Why not run a cast iron intake or water pump? How about an original starter versus a mini-starter? Jag rear end or the aluminum rear end? Steel scattershield versus a Quicktime? Lightweight crank? Aluminum rods? Etc. Cobras run hot too and aluminum blocks dissipate heat better.

Finally, IMHO, the Kirkhams seem to have gone through a lot of trouble through the years and iteration of their Cobra to reduce the weight of their car to make it better (handling too). Installing a cast iron block seemed incongruous to me.

[ng8264723]

Why have a scatter shield at all? Save weight with the quicktime? I rather have the extra mass to protect my legs. I run on a tread mill to save weight. My car is fine with iron. I lost the weight around my middle instead. Unless your all out racing 100 pounds makes zero difference. What block was the original car running that beat the new vette. Was it a Shelby?

[Excaliber]

Ford alloy block back in the day was extremely experimental. A 427 cast in alloy and then sleeved back to a 390 size bore, with small valves. Perhaps a bit to far ahead of it's time, nothing ever came of it. Of course GM tried alloy with their little 215 cid engine, eventually sold to Rover and that program ended. The Vega was up next, we all know how that ended, "up in smoke".

But the technology has matured over the decades, alloy is a good choice today. Still, I tend to favor the overall better strength/reliability of an iron block, with less fuss. In the long run, for a typical horse power build, I believe they are more economical, not as easy to warp or crack and can endure more "screw up's" (like overheating issues) in it's life span than an alloy block. My same reasoning applies to heads, even more so with heads. I'll take iron over alloy for greater endurance and long life potential.

Simply put, I don't have the deep pockets to get into an alloy block and would tend to worry more about something going wrong than I would with an iron block.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ng8264723

Why have a scatter shield at all? Save weight with the quicktime? I rather have the extra mass to protect my legs. I run on a tread mill to save weight. My car is fine with iron. I lost the weight around my middle instead. Unless your all out racing 100 pounds makes zero difference. What block was the original car running that beat the new vette. Was it a Shelby?

It's a personal decision. I'm not telling you to do anything. We both made different decisions. I'm writing my opinion so that the OP can make his own decision.

BTW, Quicktime is SFI rated.

Minus 125 lbs on the front end, I would think any car would handle and brake better on the street or track. Forgetting about the better ET's too, when that time comes. I'm very happy with my decision.

As for my middle section, I'm A OK there.

[maurice19]

Ernie,
Thanks for dredging up my old Vega nightmares.

Maurice

[Jamo]

I had a Vega GT...stock motor lasted 10,000 miles. Sleeved the block, added a cam, sidedraft and some headers and won 4 years of SCCA autocross regionals. Sold it with 80K+ miles with nary any oil being used between changes. Go figure.

Course, the rest of the car fell apart around it.

Porsche took GM's idea and built the 928 motor...did a better job and those motors did quite well over time...unsleeved.

[Chaplin]

Whether you feel any difference between the iron and aluminum blocks depends upon the type of driving you do. I originally had a 428, but switched it out for an aluminum 427 stroker. My driving is limited to the street and I can honestly say that I really don't notice any real difference in handling or performance- maybe if I were putting in on a track, I would notice a difference, but on the street there really is no discernable difference at all. But the benefits of going with a new block cannot be overlooked. JMHO.

[Fordzilla]

I agree with Chaplin. Also, I still say I would run with what you already have. Unless money is no object & you really want a CSX block. IMO, I don't see much resale benefit & no street benefit to an aluminum block. (And I have had both). If you are building an all out track monster, then go for aluminum. What's wrong with an Iron block in the Ironman car?

[Bernica]

[quote=RodKnock;1058859]...... It's like a adult female model sitting on the front of your car.

Kindof like this??

[RodKnock]

[quote=Bernica;1058998]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

...... It's like a adult female model sitting on the front of your car.

Kindof like this??

Exactly. Now who would want all that weight on the front of the car?

[Bernica]

It was tough duty doing the comparison for you all, but she was a trooper....

[RodKnock]

Well, here are my final thoughts on the subject.

It's only a snapshot in time, but Cobra Country has five (5) Kirkhams either for sale or sold. Three (3) of them have aluminum 427 FE blocks and two (2) have original cast iron 427 FE blocks. None have 428's.

I assume that there aren't too many 428's installed in Kirkhams and none that come quickly to mind.

Sooooo, get a 427, new or old, cast iron or aluminum.