Vote 428 or aluminum 427FE??

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I would bet there is not a guy on this sight with a Shelby block that cost less than Jamo's at $26K. I would venture most have $30K in them!

I'll take that bet. Not even close. Much, much less for me.

[Jamo]

Yup...I'll take part of that action too.

Ernie...buddy...don't go to Vegas.

[Excaliber]

Eh eh, lets ante up and see where it shakes out. We got Jamo coming in around $26K with all the good stuff and E-Brock heads to help control costs. That was a few years ago before prices started to come down, so an exceptional buy for the time frame.

We got Ronbo coming in at about $24K with Mass flow induction, again E-brock heads to control costs.

Rodknock is a mystery, don't know the specs or approximate cost. He's got his cards real close to his chest, no peeking.

I'm not that far off on the price by the time you add the labor to get it installed, tuned, add the extra's (fuel pump, alternator, starter, etc.) and use all Shelby components. 25 to 30 grand I reckon, likely less today for a modest build. Much less for an iron boat anchor, I mean block.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by RestoCreations

It's a seventies cast block from KC-something about that turns me off and i would rather buy a newer cat iron or aluminum block No offense to those of you that had your hay day back in the seventies, but i am in my thirties as well, and when i look at what came out of the seventies, besides me of course, i tend to shutter away from it,

The 70s cast blocks were service blocks to replace blown up OE engines. They weren't OE in any production cars. Some of them were left over by race shops when NASCAR changed the rules eliminating 427s (anyone know when that was?) The nice thing about service blocks is that they have the extra ribbing and some argue also that they have a better alloy mix than the 60s blocks.

[Excaliber]

What I like is that they can run solids or hydraulic. While I'm running a solid lifter cam now, I might want to run a hydraulic next time I rebuild. Might... could be to pricey to make it worth while, hard to beat the low cost of a flat tappet.

[damdfw]

Not really wanting to get into all of this. I have a quote from Shelby Engines (not one of the premier builders you mentioned) from September of 2007. The engine included Shelby LOGO everything including block, heads, cam, stainless steel rocker arms, pistons, water pump, intake, valve covers, timing cover, double roller timing chain, damper pulley, and ignition wires. The price quoted was $22,500 for the complete engine with Dyno.

[Excaliber]

Bear in mind a 13 second ET engine vs an 11 second ET engine is about 6 to $7,000 more dollars. As the horse's go up, so does the cost. I prefer a more street focused engine over a killer race type motor myself.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by RestoCreations

It's a seventies cast block from KC-something about that turns me off and i would rather buy a newer cat iron or aluminum block No offense to those of you that had your hay day back in the seventies, but i am in my thirties as well, and when i look at what came out of the seventies, besides me of course, i tend to shutter away from it,

At the start of this thread you were considering a 428 block. Isn't that 60s/70s-era cast? Personally, and based on the stories I have read here about Genesis blocks, I would choose that 40-year old 427 block over a new one any day. Wait, I DID choose a 40-year old block over a new one. And I have zero regrets.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

At the start of this thread you were considering a 428 block. Isn't that 60s/70s-era cast? Personally, and based on the stories I have read here about Genesis blocks, I would choose that 40-year old 427 block over a new one any day. Wait, I DID choose a 40-year old block over a new one. And I have zero regrets.

Plus you have authenticity with the 40 year old block. Genesis is still heavy, has all of those issues and you don't get the authenticity. If you want iron/authenticity, go with the NOS block. If you want new, go with the aluminum and save the weight. I don't see why you'd go with Genesis except for cost reasons - and in that case, stay with the 428 block you already have.

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Eh eh, lets ante up and see where it shakes out. We got Jamo coming in around $26K with all the good stuff and E-Brock heads to help control costs. That was a few years ago before prices started to come down, so an exceptional buy for the time frame.

We got Ronbo coming in at about $24K with Mass flow induction, again E-brock heads to control costs.

Rodknock is a mystery, don't know the specs or approximate cost. He's got his cards real close to his chest, no peeking.

I'm not that far off on the price by the time you add the labor to get it installed, tuned, add the extra's (fuel pump, alternator, starter, etc.) and use all Shelby components. 25 to 30 grand I reckon, likely less today for a modest build. Much less for an iron boat anchor, I mean block.

KC's build comes with Alternator, starter... The car comes with a fuel pump. Keith already "tuned" the engine on the dyno...

You "Reckon" wrong... (BTW the price of the Shelby blocks went up almost $1K just before I got mine)

Funny how a lot of the "vintage iron" buffs have them stuffed into fiberglass cars with square tube frames. So tell me again about that "soul"??

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Rodknock is a mystery, don't know the specs or approximate cost. He's got his cards real close to his chest, no peeking.

I'm not that far off on the price by the time you add the labor to get it installed, tuned, add the extra's (fuel pump, alternator, starter, etc.) and use all Shelby components. 25 to 30 grand I reckon, likely less today for a modest build. Much less for an iron boat anchor, I mean block.

I think you're far off. KC sells them for $19K. I paid not much more than that, but I got a 4340 forged steel crank, not a fancy crank like Jamo's, CSX block and studs, Edelbrock heads with Ferrea valves, Smith pushrods, Holley 850 DP, Ross pistons, Shelby water pump, intake and timing cover, Crower hydraulic roller cam, lifters, springs and retainers, Erson rockers (not Jamo's better T&D's), March pulley set, Aviaid pan, McLeod flywheel, pressure plate, MSD distributor, Taylor wires, blah, blah, blah. Built by Tom Lucas of FE Specialities with all the fancy machine work and assembly included. Tastes great, less filling. Dyno and tune included. 605 HP and there's more there untapped.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Funny how a lot of the "vintage iron" buffs have them stuffed into fiberglass cars with square tube frames. So tell me again about that "soul"??

Why thanks for asking. Regardless of whether its powering my fiberglass Cobra or my lawnmower, my old 1966 cast iron block has some soul: It is 1 of only 24. To each his own.

[Jamo]

When did Edelbrock heads become a "cost-saving" move?

Many builders choose them cost no object because they know them and rework them according to their own experience and approach, as Boghosian did with mine. Trust me...they don't end up costing any less.

[Excaliber]

"Soul" is what makes you smile when you open the hood, when it comes to motors. For some that means an alloy block, for others, a more period correct piece is the way to go. It's also about the dollars for some of us, I can do an iron block for considerably less money that a Shelby block, and that makes me smile when I open the hood.

[undy]

Originally Posted by Jamo

When did Edelbrock heads become a "cost-saving" move?

...when Blue Thunder or Dove's the "big horsepower" alternative.

[Excaliber]

Jamo makes a good point, and it's fundamental as to how difficult it is to compare prices, features, extra's etc.

Take the Shelby heads for instance, in general, they will only fit a 427 size bore (BIG valves). To equal that in an Edelbrock head your at "top of the line", the more expensive e-brock heads with the big valves. Compared to off the shelf E-brock heads, that means more money. Either way, you then have several options from the base heads. Port/polish for instance, a lot of variables to consider. Rocker arm, camshaft, lifter selection can also make a big difference in cost. Your basic hydraulic roller vs the high rpm roller for instance. That's where the 5 to $7,000 price spread comes in for a street vs more race engine. Forged or low cost hyper pistons? Off the shelf or custom?

KC is offering a nice package for a decent price, not bad, room for improvement with more dollars to spend. Like a mass flow induction system...

The Dove iron block is actually heavier than an original block! Well, it's stronger, more beefy. Extra strength that may not even be required for a street build, nice to have for an all out race motor application. I need a 427 bore for my high riser heads, but a center oiler would be suitably strong enough for my intended use as opposed to a side oiler.

Rumor has it a Shelby block is stronger than an original block. So if your planning a 1,000 to 1,500 horse blown or hair dryer powered motor it's a good call. For a street motor, naturally aspirated with a low rpm hydraulic roller cam, it's WAY over kill. Heck a 40 year old center oiler iron block would be just as acceptable. Superior strength, by itself, does not justify the additional expense. There are other factors that can justify the expense, the "cool" factor for instance. Like I said, for some of us, that leans more toward an original block as opposed to a modern one (and potentially a big savings on the wallet).

[Jamo]

Undy

Nope...the cost difference is neglible once some of these guys do their magic on them.

[RodKnock]

Dove's manufacturing problems, heads, blocks, etc. are well-chronicled over on the FE Forum. A few have some nice Dove parts and a great many do not.

The BT heads have raised exhaust ports, meaning revise your exhaust system and new headers potentially. They may produce more HP at the very high end of the RPM trange. However, there are many builders who still prefer the Edelbrocks an make them work at high RPM's too.

Now, the Bill Coon SOHC heads are VERY interesting to me, but even he's had some problems with manufacturing and may discontinue making them. They're priced at $5,000+ a pair, but those are bare heads. Maybe $7,000 for a complete massaged pair of heads plus all the other SOHC parts needed.

I have a dream.

[Excaliber]

$7,000 grand for heads, YIKES!!!! Now throw in another $5,000 or more for the big Webers for the beast. Dam, bring a BIG wallet to that party, we still gotta build the block this stuff will bolt onto to.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Rumor has it a Shelby block is stronger than an original block. So if your planning a 1,000 to 1,500 horse blown or hair dryer powered motor it's a good call.

Uh, more than a rumor. Come on Ernie, you appear to be purposely underselling the Shelby and the Pond aluminum blocks.

The Shelby block has a revised priority-main oiling system like a Dart/Chevy block. Both blocks (CSX and Pond) are stronger than the original cast iron 1960's and 1970's sideoiler.

What do guys like Rick Lake and Jay Brown and whole bunch of other FE guys use in their race builds? That's rhetorical, of course. These guys are producing 600-1,000 documented HP with their aluminum blocks. You can't do that with an original sideoiler, nor would you want to.

Ernie just recently changed from a Toploader to a Tremec TKO600. He moves slowly, but I know he wants one, he needs one. A CSX or Pond block that is.