Vote 428 or aluminum 427FE??

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Fordzilla

Will he recoup the 20K+ at sale time because it's got a Shelby block? I highly doubt it.

If you have two used Kirkhams in the resale market, equal in every manner, except one has a built 428/462, and the other has the Keith Craft 482 with a Shelby (or Pond) block, which Kirkham would sell for a higher price? How much higher?

It's probably NOT going to be a $20,000 difference, but the OP will have spent probably at least $10,000 to build his 428/462. So will the Kirkham with the KC 482/CSX (or Pond) engine sell for $10,000 more. I dunno, but if they were both priced equally and both cars were equal in every manner but the engine, then I would purchase the Kirkham with the KC 482 engine over the Kirkham with the 428/462 engine all day long.

In fact, I'll take one step further. IMHO, I, ME, MYSELF would pay more for a Kirkham with an aluminum block than I would for a Kirkham with any cast iron block, of course, that would exclude an original SOHC engine.

Of course, others will feel differently.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

If you have two used Kirkhams in the resale market, equal in every manner, except one has a built 428/462, and the other has the Keith Craft 482 with a Shelby (or Pond) block, which Kirkham would sell for a higher price? How much higher?

It's probably NOT going to be a $20,000 difference, but the OP will have spent probably at least $10,000 to build his 428/462. So will the Kirkham with the KC 482/CSX (or Pond) engine sell for $10,000 more. I dunno, but if they were both priced equally and both cars were equal in every manner but the engine, then I would purchase the Kirkham with the KC 482 engine over the Kirkham with the 428/462 engine all day long.

In fact, I'll take one step further. IMHO, I, ME, MYSELF would pay more for a Kirkham with an aluminum block than I would for a Kirkham with any cast iron block, of course, that would exclude an original SOHC engine.

Of course, others will feel differently.

Yeah right!

You know you would not settle for the iron block SOHC, you want the aluminum SOHC and you would save probably save yourself a ton of money by going with the aluminum version anyway.

[RodKnock]

Of course, I would want an aluminum SOHC over anything else, but when debating between a "standard" aluminum 482 FE versus an original cast iron SOHC engine, I'm not 100% sure what I would do there. Maybe choose the original SOHC engine, sell it, then build all aluminum SOHC engine. Yes, I like that.

Only one problem. Bill Coon may be ceasing his production of his aluminum SOHC heads due to some production problems.

[ERA Chas]

[quote= Bill Coon may be ceasing his production of his aluminum SOHC heads due to some production problems.[/QUOTE]

Rod, do you have any info on the nature of the problems?
Is porosity an issue? Cam wear? Any info appreciated.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Of course, I would want an aluminum SOHC over anything else, but when debating between a "standard" aluminum 482 FE versus an original cast iron SOHC engine, I'm not 100% sure what I would do there. Maybe choose the original SOHC engine, sell it, then build all aluminum SOHC engine. Yes, I like that.

Only one problem. Bill Coon may be ceasing his production of his aluminum SOHC heads due to some production problems.

Didn't you pass on an iron SOHC a while back?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by dcdoug

Didn't you pass on an iron SOHC a while back?

It's probably still available. A gentleman from the FE Forum probably still has it due to the economy. I never contacted the seller, so I never seriously entertained it.

Besides the initial investment in the engine, there's also all the modifications necessary to my car to consider as well.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Rod, do you have any info on the nature of the problems?
Is porosity an issue? Cam wear? Any info appreciated.

Chas, a guy named Roger Gordon does all the Internet correspondence for Bill Coon. So, Roger is writing what Bill Coon tells him to write.

I believe this is Bill Coon's last update on his SOHC parts:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...+own+buiseness

[ERA Chas]

Thanks Knockers.

A very sad and sticky wicket...

[RodKnock]

The alternatives for aluminum SOHC heads are drying up in hurry.

[dynoroom]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Chas, a guy named Roger Gordon does all the Internet correspondence for Bill Coon. So, Roger is writing what Bill Coon tells him to write.

I believe this is Bill Coon's last update on his SOHC parts:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...+own+buiseness

If you read this I feel for you Bill, I looked at the 'cammer head soon after the block was in production. I know what it cost to get the Shelby block into production, the SOHC heads were going to be at least twice that if you included cams (left & right, intake manifolds (single 4, dual 4, weber, efi,) rocker covers (left & right) etc. I sat in Carrolls office and said if we take this on now (~2000) we'll never break even on the investment. The cammer heads is a HUGE undertaking no matter what the penut gallery say's.
In the end Bill will be a hero IMO.

[RestoCreations]

A forum member just weighed a 428 for me and it came in at 185 pounds. So, i guess the weight difference isnt such a huge factor. I sold the 428, so i will be purchasing a 427 side oiler in the near future.
However, i am going to wait and put my money into getting every other part of the car functioning first. This will give me time to look around for the right block-just in case a really good deal pops up.

[RodKnock]

From poking around it seems that the 185 lbs for a 428 is about right. The original cast iron 427 blocks are around 200 lbs. per the Genesis site. The Pond aluminum block is about 120 lbs and the Shelby aluminum block is 125 lbs. The Genesis cast iron block weighs 230 lbs.

http://www.shelby-cars.com/Shelby_Alum_Block.htm
http://www.genesis427.com/Blocks1.htm
http://www.robertpondmotorsports.com...gine-block.htm

Good luck with the search and build.

[RestoCreations]

Wow, that is a significant weight difference for the Genesis Cast block. I understand reinforcement, but that is a good bit of extra meat.
I spoke with a reputable builder and according to him there have been a lot of issues with the genesis blocks. On top of issues with the castings, there apparently is a supply problem as well. That's unfortunate because the price is appealing. Im just repeating what i heard and it could just be that they have a preference for one manufacturer over the other.

[Excaliber]

I wonder, is the extra strength of a Genesis block necessary over the strength of an original casting as it concerns a typical build?

Today, a typical build will likely be one with a hydraulic roller cam with an rpm limit in the 5,000 range. 6,000 if you go with the really good stuff. Is there a history of original side oiler blocks flexing or breaking or in some way being the direct cause of an engine failure in the 6,000 rpm range?

There have been reports of the center oiler block cracking in the main bearing saddle areas with rpm in the high 6,000 or more rpm range, not so with the side oiler.

So, the question remains: At what point is the extra strength warranted in a modern block?

Now there may be a host of other reasons to go with a modern block, cost effective for one, the assumption that the block is "ready to go" with no issues other than the standard machining process'. I'm not sure, but I think you can get a bigger bore with a modern block than an original side oiler, due to the siamese cylinder walls. So if your looking for really big cubic inches (bore plus stroke), that alone could justify a modern block.

But for a typical build at reasonable rpm levels, is it necessary?

[RestoCreations]

I have to say that if i built a 427 and it would not spin to 6,000 that I would be highly disappointed and be forced to look at my selection of parts. I would also be highly disappointed if it blew up at around 6,000 rpm. Anyway, i think it is just more appealing to purchase a newer block simply due to the availability of original side oilers that are not trashed or highly modified. Everything i have seen come up on ebay or craigslist in the last 5 months, excluding the 427 NOS block that KC listed, has been garbage with at least two sleeves, and the sellers still want mega bucks for them. NO thanks!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by RestoCreations

I have to say that if i built a 427 and it would not spin to 6,000 that I would be highly disappointed and be forced to look at my selection of parts. I would also be highly disappointed if it blew up at around 6,000 rpm. Anyway, i think it is just more appealing to purchase a newer block simply due to the availability of original side oilers that are not trashed or highly modified. Everything i have seen come up on ebay or craigslist in the last 5 months, excluding the 427 NOS block that KC listed, has been garbage with at least two sleeves, and the sellers still want mega bucks for them. NO thanks!

As I said previously, I started my search for an original sideoiler block too. All I found were sideoilers that had sleeves or needed sleeves. I also found welded pan rails too. I got tired quickly and I didn't search for very long because my patience ran out fast.

New is always a good choice.

[Fordzilla]

Resto, Sleeves are not garbage. Must have been other issues to have been considered garbage? I actually prefer a block with all cylinders sleeved. -That's probably a topic for another thread. Carl's Ford also has an NOS 427 block for sale.

[Excaliber]

Sleeves in a block initially was a concern of mine, but over time and looking at this issue I've come to realize it's actually a good call.

Why I mentioned a 6,000 rpm range is because of the growing popularity or hydraulic roller cams. They, typically, make their best horse power in the high 5's low 6's maybe for the best price (dollar per horse power). To get the high rpm hydraulic roller you gotta kick up a notch and get the good stuff for a few (or a bunch) dollars more.

While flat tappet's are loosing popularity for a variety of reasons (what, people to lazy to adjust their valves? ) they are a great inexpensive alternative that will take you into mid to 6,000's with no problem. I can hear it now, why would you want to rev that high if you can make the same or more power with a hyd roller at lower rpm? Well, some of us just like a reasonable rpm range, thats all, and to save some bucks is icing on the cake.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Sleeves in a block initially was a concern of mine, but over time and looking at this issue I've come to realize it's actually a good call.

Why I mentioned a 6,000 rpm range is because of the growing popularity or hydraulic roller cams. They, typically, make their best horse power in the high 5's low 6's maybe for the best price (dollar per horse power). To get the high rpm hydraulic roller you gotta kick up a notch and get the good stuff for a few (or a bunch) dollars more.

While flat tappet's are loosing popularity for a variety of reasons (what, people to lazy to adjust their valves? ) they are a great inexpensive alternative that will take you into mid to 6,000's with no problem. I can hear it now, why would you want to rev that high if you can make the same or more power with a hyd roller at lower rpm? Well, some of us just like a reasonable rpm range, thats all, and to save some bucks is icing on the cake.

The new blocks have significant improvements over the original blocks. Dynoroom could speak to all the testing that was done to the CSX block. The NOS sideoiler was $4,500. The Pond block is about $5,000 and the CSX is about $6,000 in round numbers. Putting aside all the improvements with modern technology, the weight savings of 60 lbs (428), 75 lbs (427) or 105 lbs (Genesis) is icing on the cake for me.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Fordzilla

Resto, Sleeves are not garbage.

This assume the sleeves were done correctly. I would not be able to tell if they were done correctly or not, so I would need to take someone who does know or buy from a reputable seller like Barry or Keith.