I set up my four wheel align ment for next week. I had a quea - Page 2

scottj · #21 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

... and changing corner weights has no affect on camber whatsoever?

Not if you maintain ride heights.

patrickt · #22 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottj

Not if you maintain ride heights.

How do you avoid changing the ride height when using your spanner to adjust your coil overs, and thus affect the corner weights?

Jerry Clayton · #23 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:02 PM

Patrick

I went and read up on your DR Krane------what a joke!!!!!

If he really would like to find out about suspension and corner weights, etc, he should get in touch with me or Scott, since he seems to be local to us!!!!!

scottj · #24 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

How do you avoid changing the ride height when using your spanner to adjust your coil overs, and thus affect the corner weights?

Say you want to increase RF-LR weight to balance your cross-weights. You would put turns in on the RF and LR coils and take turns out of the LF and RR coils, thus changing distibution while maintaining ride heights.

patrickt · #25 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Patrick

I went and read up on your DR Krane------what a joke!!!!!

If he really would like to find out about suspension and corner weights, etc, he should get in touch with me or Scott, since he seems to be local to us!!!!!

Jerry, he's got a Ph. D. in physics and works at the Fermi Lab. C'mon.

ERA Chas · #26 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Look Scott, I'm not just trying to beat you in an argument. I'd like to find out the suspension engineer's answer, but it's got to be more than just yours.

Cripes!-Scott's a RACER...

You go to restaurants-does he really need to debate his suspension practices with you?

patrickt · #27 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Cripes!-Scott's a RACER...

You go to restaurants-does he really need to debate his suspension practices with you?

Chas, you're pretty bright, and have done your fair share of suspension tweaks. Do you have an opinion on what should come first, corner weights or alignment?

Jerry Clayton · #28 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:12 PM

PHd in Physics

was intern at fermi lab
works in financial district
has turbo 300zx
$475 of concrete blocks and floor tile and some alum conduit that is actually galvanized steel

gray area will be discussed later in a different course

Get real Patrict---you want your car set up and aligned?????bring it to Chicago NW side
after we're done , we'll find Dr K and let him put it up on his concrete blocks and floor tile

patrickt · #29 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:18 PM

Jerry, if I could find something that was even half-way authoritative that went the other way, I'd happily post it. The problem is, there's a lot of suspension shops out there that say corner weights first, then alignment. Jerry, you know I love you, but I'm not completely sure I could get you qualified as an expert. I'd give it my best shot, though.

scottj · #30 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Jerry, if I could find something that was even half-way authoritative that went the other way, I'd happily post it. The problem is, there's a lot of suspension shops out there that say corner weights first, then alignment. Jerry, you know I love you, but I'm not completely sure I could get you qualified as an expert. I'd give it my best shot, though.

My suspension shop is Newman-Haas Racing. Alan O. runs the suspension department and he built the shocks I currently run on the Cobra. I'm not sure if they qualify as experts, but I know they've won a few races...

Jerry Clayton · #31 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:49 PM

Patrick

The two guys you have rferanced didn't say a single word about tire pressures or stagger!!!

They set the cars up on concrete blocks and floor tiles!!!

They suggest buying $20 levels at Sears because the highly accurate levels used in accurate shops cost $200!!!

They don't know what conduit is made out of!!!

They think that the wheel base needs to be the same on both sides of the car!!

Who would you like to ask about my qualifications???
Someone in the following fields----agriculture, trucking,drag racing, indy cars, dirt oval,
pavement oval,road course, karting,military wheeled or tracked vehicles,aviation????

Since this is ClubCobra, how about Carrol Shelby, himself?

You seem to be hung up on corner weights------corner weights won't change the weight of the car---as you add (or subtract) to one corner, you will change weight accordingly on the opposite corner the same direction and it will come from or go to the cross corners---make left front heavier, rt rear gets heavier and rt fand lt r gets lighter---

You seem to be missing that when you set you ride heights, that you must adjust all 4 corners----and you will set your ride heights for various reasons---looks, traction(weight transfer) braking (weight transfer) cornering (weight transfer)

AND-----suspension member heights and angles can be effected by your RIDE height so some are adjustable to maintain the effects of caster, camber and bump steer----

The people who race in any COMPETITIVE circles (as compared to track days or dyno slips) do these weights and alignment checks constantly, before and after races, practices, tests---Every time the car comes off the track they check tire temps at three locations to determine what the suspension is doing, and tire pressures as the car comes to a stop when it comes off the track

ng8264723 · #32 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 04:59 PM

Holy Moly What did I start?
I will go get the car aligned. He has a four wheel alignment machin e but I don't think he has weight tables. My friend has them. Hopefully I can borrow them and do it after

patrickt · #33 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ng8264723

Holy Moly What did I start?
I will go get the car aligned. He has a four wheel alignment machin e but I don't think he has weight tables. My friend has them. Hopefully I can borrow them and do it after

I think if he sets the alignment, then does the corner weights, then checks the alignment again he will have made everybody happy. But Chas. is right -- it's time for me to eat my dinner.

ERA Chas · #34 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Chas, you're pretty bright, and have done your fair share of suspension tweaks. Do you have an opinion on what should come first, corner weights or alignment?

First-Don't ever accuse me of being bright...
Without any professional input, in the '90's, I first set the ride height at 4.75 F, 4.875 R, with my weight + half tank.
Then local racer Willie Hassic set alignment (my weight in + half tank) as: 4 deg caster, 1/2 deg neg F camber, 3/4 deg neg R camber, 1/16" pos. toe F, 1/16" pos. toe R.
Then I scaled the car (with my weight+half tank) and got these figures but made no jacking changes:
LF 682 / RF 648, LR 755, RR 748. Distribution 47% / 53%.
I felt the differences were small enough for the occasional track and high speed runs I'd done. Wasn't looking for the ultimate lap. It's arrow-straight from 70 to 155mph, stops straight, and has turn-in that satisfies me. Again-I'm not the pros like Scott and Jerry.

From Scott's #10 post:
"If you're changing ride heights when adjusting corner weights then you're doing it wrong. Ride height is set 1st, then alignment, then scaling. Ride height is maintained through out and doesn't change when scaling."

How was that CROW you ate for dinner

patrickt · #35 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

How was that CROW you ate for dinner

We went beyond that when he wrote: "Say you want to increase RF-LR weight to balance your cross-weights. You would put turns in on the RF and LR coils and take turns out of the LF and RR coils, thus changing distibution while maintaining ride heights." We have a nice set of electronic scales in the local club, and right now my alignment and corner weights are dialed in nicely. But when I replace my Yokos with the Avons the ride height will change a bit, so that will be the perfect time to play with it all again.

BTW, please pass the mahi mahi.

ERA Chas · #36 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

We have a nice set of electronic scales in the local club, and right now my alignment and corner weights are dialed in nicely. But when I replace my Yokos with the Avons the ride height will change a bit, so that will be the perfect time to play with it all again.

TO WHAT END?

None of the talking -head experts here ask themselves that question. And when newer guys ask for advice or info all they see is 'authoritative' preferences based mostly on web-dredged BS-not- lap times, ET's or durability evidence.

Ignored or not contemplated in all these BS science threads is What is the intended purpose of the car's use??

8/10's of the debaters and pontificating experts on here have NO NEED for corner weights, ZDDP, space-age coolants, gallons of oil and several other myth-laden subjects. And certainly neither do you, my authoritative friend. Guys are buying $15 / quart oil and throwing it out in three thousand miles because A. They perceive it's the best stuff for their 'baby' and B. They just CAN. Nobody asks 'Do I really need some of this esoteric stuff? Virtually NONE of it is required to increase the car's performance or longevity for the length of the owner's attention span-unless it's raced on the street or track.

You're buying Avons ?--to cut quicker laps to the haberdasher? Or cut 1.1G apexes? MT's are equal to your now-old Yokos and your street trolling needs at half the price of Avons. SFT's 'cause the noise is 'cool' in a rebuilder FE that can't make the tach touch '6'. The Emperor's Clothes indeed.

Get to Skip Barber's for the three day and when you're done you'll realize that there's 7/10's left in the car you never knew about. THAT'S what Cobras are all about.

You've taken this 'poser' stuff to new depths. Even Ferrari / Porsche owners conclude we're ass-clowns based on what can be read here.

patrickt · #37 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 07:24 PM

I have to replace my Yokos with something, and there aren't that many 15 inch tire choices. But Avon doesn't make a 235 for the front, and the 295 for the rear was, as I recall a decent bit different than my Yokos. The combined effect will require a ride height adjustment, and if you're doing that you might as well adjust the corners as well. Right? Remember, I take my ERA apart and put it back together again just for kicks.

patrickt · #38 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 07:26 PM

Chas., I do have a cool new ERA modification planned for my car that I might get to this year before I bag her up for the winter.... Wanna know what it is?

WardL · #39 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 07:41 PM

I'm sure I've screwed my suspension all up as I adjusted the ride height up a lot. The point I thought might be relevant, is depending on the type and design of the suspension, one way or the other might work better. Seems like you want to do the alignment last. I would think it better to have the corner balance off a little than have the alignment off a little.

ERA Chas · #40 (**permalink**) 07-31-2010, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Chas., I do have a cool new ERA modification planned for my car that I might get to this year before I bag her up for the winter.... Wanna know what it is?

No mystery-it's a third roll bar. Why not leave it in a bag all year and just open it to take pictures?

Seems like you choose to ignore my comments and revert to non-substance.