SOHC Kirkham

Motorhead27 · #1 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 02:48 PM

I'm new to the forum, but not new to Cobras. For the longest time I've been planning on dropping the 427 SOHC into a Factory Five. But recently I've been thinking about how smart a move that would be. Dropping a $40K engine into a FFR might not be such a good idea based off of the resale value of the car in the end. I'm not wanting a Cobra as an investment, it would be my toy, but the choices I make about that toy with this engine have to be smart choices. That includes planning to sell it should I ever have to. So the only company in my opinion that makes sense with this engine is a Kirkham. That is a short run down of how I got here.

I'm looking for any insight and advice about a SOHC in a Kirkham, or just owning a Kirkham in general. What to know about, what to look for, etc. Also, if anyone knows this, can you use Vintage Wheel's 17" knock off Halibrands with a Kirkham? I think you can, but I'm not familiar with Kirkhams, I know FFRs like the back of my hand. Lastly, I'd love to see any pictures you guys have of Cammer Kirkhams. I have a few different ones photographically documented, but I'm always looking for more. I'll post more information about my plan after some discussion is going.

Cheers,
Joe

mrmustang · #2 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motorhead27

I'm new to the forum, but not new to Cobras. For the longest time I've been planning on dropping the 427 SOHC into a Factory Five. But recently I've been thinking about how smart a move that would be. Dropping a $40K engine into a FFR might not be such a good idea based off of the resale value of the car in the end. I'm not wanting a Cobra as an investment, it would be my toy, but the choices I make about that toy with this engine have to be smart choices. That includes planning to sell it should I ever have to. So the only company in my opinion that makes sense with this engine is a Kirkham. That is a short run down of how I got here.

I'm looking for any insight and advice about a SOHC in a Kirkham, or just owning a Kirkham in general. What to know about, what to look for, etc. Also, if anyone knows this, can you use Vintage Wheel's 17" knock off Halibrands with a Kirkham? I think you can, but I'm not familiar with Kirkhams, I know FFRs like the back of my hand. Lastly, I'd love to see any pictures you guys have of Cammer Kirkhams. I have a few different ones photographically documented, but I'm always looking for more. I'll post more information about my plan after some discussion is going.

Cheers,
Joe

Joe,

Still trolling I see......As posted on the ffcars site..........

Any kit car (CSX4000 series included) is not a good investment as far as resale goes. Unless you are purpose build for a resale , can do all of your own work, get parts for cost or 5% above true master WD cost, you will lose money on the back end. Yes, even Kirkham sellers lose money, percentage wise just as much as a FFR owner. However, and I have said this before, if you are building for potential resale, the odds are stacked against you that you'll turn profit. No two ways about it, look at the car as an investment and you are doing it for all the wrong reasons, regardless of which kit you decide to buy/build. Build or buy for the sheer pleasure, build for the enjoyment, build for the challenge......................

Bill S.

Motorhead27 · #3 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 06:35 PM

Bill, I'm not trolling. I came here because this is where I'll get the most insight. If you checked the other forum, you'd see my response to what you said. I'm not doing this as an investment, it's my toy, my hobby. I'm just trying to make a smart choice about what brand I drop the engine into. That is why I've started to seriously look at Kirkham. Many would say you don't drop a $40K engine into a FFR. You don't long for a Cobra for a decade to just build it and sell it, and by the time I make this happen, it will have been a decade of planning and research.

Grubby · #4 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 06:42 PM

I think a Cammer would be most appropriate in a Kirkham or ERA. It seems like a really expensive engine for a FFR.

John

Motorhead27 · #5 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 06:53 PM

John, that's what I was thinking, which is why I've changed the plans a little. Now I'm just trying to find out more about Kirkhams with Cammers in them. I know the foot boxes have to be modified, the FFR would have to be made for a mod motor. The headers have to be unique too, I think Kirkham has headers for this engine. Going with a Kirkham is a whole different beast, one I'm not as familiar with.

olddog · #6 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 07:08 PM

Well I guess you could argue that any car is an investment. There are car dealers who make a living at buying and selling them. However, for most of us I do agree with Bill that it is going to be a negative investment.

I understand Bill's point, but do not know any history the two of you may have. That said I also disagree a little with him. It would, in my humble opinion, be stupid to put a 40K engine into a Streetbeast. I don't care how well you build it, I would never buy it from you and pay more than what the individual parts in the car was worth minus my labor to disassemble it.

Of course the amount of money you will loose, when you sell a Cobra, is proportional to the reputation of the manufacturer, as well as the thought put into the car as a package.

FFR is a good kit designed for small blocks. Yes, you can put an FE in them, but FFR, from my talking to them, will steer you toward a small block as will many others. It is also not designed to be true to the original cars. It's a fine car that fits the desires of many people, but not what I would put a cammer in.

If you can afford it go Kirkham - I think keith Craft can set you up with exactly what you want.

Motorhead27 · #7 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olddog

Well I guess you could argue that any car is an investment. There are car dealers who make a living at buying and selling them. However, for most of us I do agree with Bill that it is going to be a negative investment.

I understand Bill's point, but do not know any history the two of you may have. That said I also disagree a little with him. It would, in my humble opinion, be stupid to put a 40K engine into a Streetbeast. I don't care how well you build it, I would never buy it from you and pay more than what the individual parts in the car was worth minus my labor to disassemble it.

Of course the amount of money you will loose, when you sell a Cobra, is proportional to the reputation of the manufacturer, as well as the thought put into the car as a package.

FFR is a good kit designed for small blocks. Yes, you can put an FE in them, but FFR, from my talking to them, will steer you toward a small block as will many others. It is also not designed to be true to the original cars. It's a fine car that fits the desires of many people, but not what I would put a cammer in.

If you can afford it go Kirkham - I think keith Craft can set you up with exactly what you want.

Your reasoning is the same reasoning why I'm going with Kirkham. Bill's advice doesn't really matter here, although good advice. I'm not planning on this car as an investment, that's not the purpose of it or even close to the devotion behind it. I know these cars aren't good investments, I've been around long enough to know that. I'm new here, but I've been a regular over on FFCars for a long time. That is where me and Bill know each other and the background behind my reply to him here. Kirkham has a great reputation, one you can feel good about dropping this engine in. FFR isn't cut out for this engine, plain and simple. If life took a turn for the worse and I had to part with my favorite vehicle (and engine), a Kirkham would have a better return than a FFR would with this engine. That is the reason why I have to be smart about the choice of brand. The build plan for the FFR was actually not far off from what this plan would cost. Partly due to the engine. Kirkham is what made the most sense.

Now onto other parts of the plan. I also plan on painting the Cobra, Lexus Spectra Blue Mica with silver stripes, I haven't decided on the exact silver. I'm also planning on doing an interior similar to this one, but in black leather with blue carbon fiber inserts. So this won't be your regular Kirkham either. I was planning on doing the interior myself on the FFR, and that wouldn't change with a Kirkham. I can be very particular and OCD on some things, this build would be one of them.

patrickt · #8 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:03 PM

Joe, if you put a cammer in a Kirkham, paint it blue, and then put in that hideous interior, you are absolutely, positively, guaranteed to lose your ass on any resale. The only benefit I can see from going with an ERA instead is that there would be about a year lag time while you waited in line and, hopefully, you would come to your senses. If you must do it, do it to an FFR.

*13* · #9 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:06 PM

It's your car but I think unless you keep the interior such as it would be expected in an early shelby car you might not be doing yourself any favors either. Personally if I had a Cammer I'd find a different car for it or Sell/Swap it for a side oiler to put in a cobra of this caliber. Cammer is one of the most awesome motors ever & they do look great in a cobra but to be "smart", I don't think buying a cobra replica is exactly "smart", I'd wanna stick to a 427-428.. this is a cammer car! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPJ_B...eature=related

Motorhead27 · #10 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:11 PM

The interior isn't exactly like that one, just the quality of it is what I mean. But, painting a Kirkham and then doing a different interior, well, not everyone will like it. Some will see it as messing with a classic standard. Some might actually like it. In the end though, the car is designed for me and what I want. The resale thing is just should life go south, a Kirkham would be a better choice than a FFR with this engine. I don't actually plan on selling this car once I own it, ever. When I say life going south, I mean you're out of options and pretty screwed up no matter what you do. This isn't meant to be sold again.

Dimis · #11 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:22 PM

Hi Joe,

If you were planing to customize as per your image above then I'd opt F5 Cobra, and if sh!t happened, then I'd look to sell the engine and roller separately.

It would cost you less up front, you are familiar with the F5 product, and you sound like you'll be happy & competent to do the labor yourself.

There would be a market for both a used Cammer and a used F5 Roller & I suspect you'd lose less on the turnaround.

If you did the above to a Kirkham... I fear you may limit the market that would purchase it should things take a turn for the worse.

Either way, Its your call and either car I'm sure will provide you with ample enjoyment and indulgence. Your only concern should be that you don't make this a case of paralysis by analysis - Kirkham vs F5 - and it takes you a further 10 years of research before you make a play.

Best of luck with your project, it sounds like it will be a helluva toy...

Dimis · #12 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motorhead27

The interior isn't exactly like that one, just the quality of it is what I mean. But, painting a Kirkham and then doing a different interior, well, not everyone will like it. Some will see it as messing with a classic standard. Some might actually like it. In the end though, the car is designed for me and what I want. The resale thing is just should life go south, a Kirkham would be a better choice than a FFR with this engine. I don't actually plan on selling this car once I own it, ever. When I say life going south, I mean you're out of options and pretty screwed up no matter what you do. This isn't meant to be sold again.

Ignore my previous post...
It sounds like you have already made up your mind... and are looking to us for justification.

I'm sure you'll love the Kirkham...

PS: You don't need our justification...
PPS: In the end it will be sold... even if you aren't around to see it sold

Good luck

David Kirkham · #13 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:30 PM

Motorhead27,

Thanks for the post here. My best advice is to make what you want. If that is a FFR then buy it, build it, and be happy. If that is an ERA, I am sure Peter will make you a nice car. If that is a Kirkham, we are happy to help as well. If you build what you really want, then you are much more likely to keep it for a long, long time--and that is really what this is all about.

David

Motorhead27 · #14 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:38 PM

Thanks. I haven't given much thought to that, but it did cross my mind that selling the car and engine separately would be the best route should s#!t hit the fan. My concern on the engine and interior isn't just should I ever have to sell it. I probably won't. I also am taking into account what I'd be doing to a Kirkham or FFR. I'm not sure if I could mess with a Kirkham the way I want my car to be. You say paralysis by analysis and that is pretty close to what it's already like. Yes, eventually it will be sold or trashed. But, who knows what things will be like once I'm dead. Either 1 of the following would happen. 1, whoever I leave it to, doesn't sell it and wants it. 2, like number 1, but they sell it. or 3, someone wrecks it beyond repair. I'll love my Cobra no matter what brand it is. I've always gone against the norm, so being the black Cobra (black sheep) wouldn't be new. And hey, maybe some will even like it besides me.

Excaliber · #15 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:53 PM

The above pictured interior example is a good fit in an FFR, or maybe a street beast.

Because,,,

Quote:

...not everyone will like it.

Exactly!

Motorhead27 · #16 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 08:56 PM

David, Thanks. There are some questions I'd like to ask you. 1, what kind of undercoating do you do on a Kirkham if you want to protect it from rocks? 2, Has anyone done a full paint job on a Kirkham? 3, Out of curiosity, can you put a sway bar on the front and rear suspension? As I said earlier, I don't know Kirkhams as well as I know FFRs, and I know you can on a FFR. And lastly, do you have any pictures of the cammer Kirkhams you are currently working on? I know about the copper cammer Kirkham and have a few, but they aren't very good ones. Any information about these cars is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe

PS. Has KMS ever tried to do a different interior to see how it would look? I'll admit that it is hard to go against the norm with a Kirkham, you sort of feel like your messing with a masterpiece.

David Kirkham · #17 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motorhead27

David, Thanks. There are some questions I'd like to ask you. 1, what kind of undercoating do you do on a Kirkham if you want to protect it from rocks? 2, Has anyone done a full paint job on a Kirkham? 3, Out of curiosity, can you put a sway bar on the front and rear suspension? As I said earlier, I don't know Kirkhams as well as I know FFRs, and I know you can on a FFR. And lastly, do you have any pictures of the cammer Kirkhams you are currently working on? I know about the copper cammer Kirkham and have a few, but they aren't very good ones. Any information about these cars is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe

PS. Has KMS ever tried to do a different interior to see how it would look? I'll admit that it is hard to go against the norm with a Kirkham, you sort of feel like your messing with a masterpiece.

We install a 3/8" closed cell foam under the fenders. It protects them very well from rock dings. Many of our cars have been painted. I painted several of them myself--though that was many years ago. Our cars come standard with a front sway bar. We can install a rear sway bar as well with no problem. I will post some pictures of the latest Cammer we did (the copper car). If you follow the "Flip-Top" thread you will see many of the modifications we do to install a Cammer. You don't need to make it a Flip-Top, however. Here is the thread.

Kirkham Motorsports University The Making of a Flip Top

The interior on we built on the billet chassis car is very custom. Here is a thread on that. Million Dollar Skunksworks Kirkham

I wrote a book on the car. You can download it here for free.

http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/

David

twobjshelbys · #18 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 09:20 PM

Why are you excluding a Fiberglass CSX? If you're going to paint it it anyway, and even unpainted aluminum dings and dents are a pain, but with paint you're in for twice the work and even more cost.

Motorhead27 · #19 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 09:27 PM

Thanks David. I'm going to read up on those suggestions.

Why not a CSX, it's personal. I like the cars, but you have to consider where I'm coming from. Loyal FFR guy for almost 5 years. There's bad history there, and if you were on this end, you end up having a big dislike for the guy. I don't have a reason to not like David and his business is the one on the cutting edge of technology. Also, with the interior I want to do, I have a hard enough problem thinking about doing that to a Kirkham. I don't need to mix that up with a CSX.

RodKnock · #20 (**permalink**) 02-13-2011, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Joe, if you put a cammer in a Kirkham, paint it blue, and then put in that hideous interior, you are absolutely, positively, guaranteed to lose your ass on any resale.

If you must do it, do it to an FFR.

This was approximately my first reaction. But you know what? Do what makes you happy, but be prepared to "write off" the cost (plus the cost to return it back to original spec) of the interior and any other deviations from the typical Kirkham/CSX/ERA build.

As for a SOHC engine in a FFR, my advice would be to not install a $100,000 state-of-the-art home theater system into $50,000 house in a lower-priced neighborhood in Any City, USA.