Hey David-billet 302??

[ERA Chas]

While asking how to clean piston tops, Cindrich casually mentions in his thread that he's drawing a billet short deck Windsor for you. Responders completely miss that block-buster and tell him how to clean pistons. Do you really want a guy that can't clean piston tops designing your blocks and tools?
What's up? Haven't completed the billet FE yet right?
More details please....

[olddog]

Same thought entered my mind, but I didn't want to be rude, so I just tried to be helpful and let it go. I expect others did the same.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by olddog

Same thought entered my mind, but I didn't want to be rude, so I just tried to be helpful and let it go.

I don't mind being direct (not rude) when there's important info to be had.

[ERA Chas]

Assuming that KMS was closed for the weekend (?), would still like to learn about this.
Who do I have to call, the Governor's office??

[ERA Chas]

Lack of response seems like we weren't supposed to know about this. Somebody at KMS must watch their own forum site.
Wonder why when the billet pan, air ducts, coupe and billet FE all had a lot of splash here.
I'm sure plenty of GT-40 guys would crave a billet 302...

[scottj]

I picture it to look something like this...

[ERA Chas]

That's a cast block. I'd rather see how David pictures it.

[scottj]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

That's a cast block. I'd rather see how David pictures it.

That's the Dart SBF billet block... machined from a solid 6061 billet...

[tirod]

Point being, why? Billet isn't "better," it's simply taking a large hunk of aluminum and machining it to final dimension. That means every pass of the tool head has to be programmed, and that the final dimensions are actually what you want. It does not mean the material it's being machined in is better, or that the final result will be stronger.

What you get with billet - actually, fully CNC machined - is shorter lead times, as there is no casting process. You still have to know what dimensions are needed (not wanted,) and why. All a billet block gives you is quicker turnaround time from finished drawing to finished part. That part still needs development beyond the computer design time that created it.

Last of all, it's still a block. Build one and the motor could still turn out to be less than what was anticipated. Cams, heads, and induction are what make horsepower, the crank just conveys it, and the block just holds the crank. Not to mention that if you overheat it, the studs and bolts will likely pull the threads and all you have is a very expensive coffee table.

Anybody with a big enough mill and a programmer can machine a billet block - it's exactly what CNC machines do, make low quantities at high profits for niche markets. Otherwise, volume would justify casting for a less expensive end price. "Billet" has become synonymous with "bling" in the haute rod culture, very little of it actually performs to a higher standard. It just looks cool.

[ERA Chas]

Thanks for the primer but nobody said better or worse. It's not the point here.
What is the point is why the KMS folks haven't responded-since it's allegedly their project and this is their 'speak to' forum.

[fordracing65]

Getting a block from a solid peice of aluminum would be stronger than casting, there is a reason Prostock uses billet blocks, along with weight savings and so on, you could'nt be wrong on more levels, any time you can add strength and save weight it's a plus in my book. They have tested the block and so far so good, and if the Kirkhams are designing it, you know it has to be good. (Iv'e talked with Dart about making an FE block billet, they just need an FE block to digitize and duplicate, anyone have a Shelby or Pond laying around?)

[Jerry Clayton]

CN Blocks ~ Home

tell em I sent ya

[vector1]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

CN Blocks ~ Home

tell em I sent ya

$$

[Sandwich]

This is Cindrich here. I heard my name getting tossed around here, so I thought I'd chime in.
The FE block is running well. I had some issues with the head gaskets leaking, so I made some copper gaskets. They leaked also, so I flared the edge of the gasket around the cylinder and finally got a good seal around the combustion chamber. But it leaked water from between the head and the block. So I then added "The Right Stuff" gasket sealer to the copper gaskets, and its all good now.
The engine made 630 HP and 580 foot pounds of torque. Not bad for a home made engine! It seems to pull really hard at 5000 rpm, more than any other FE I've driven that was built with the same specs.

We will be making more of them some time, but not sure when. We may make the same thing as before, but we did run into some patent issues with Darton with the sleeve we made. So at best we will need to do a redesign of the sleeve. We also may make a open deck 427 block. i've been midway through programing it, then got pulled off it to do other things.
Its true we will be making a 302 billet block soon also, but I can't know exactly when we will be able to get to it. We have a lot of customers cars that need work before we can make time for the 302 block.
I can tell you that it may end up being a open deck style block, with a standard sleeve. 4 bolt mains and a one piece main cap girdle.

As far as a billet block verses a cast block, its stronger, and lighter (assuming the guy who drew it knew what he was doing).

Does anyone really "need" a billet block? No! But they are cool as hell!

[Sandwich]

I must state also, that it was my brother Chris who is cleaning carbon off his pistons, designing that engine, and I will be programing it and machining it. Chris is a very good designer/ engineer, and with the help of David and Tom Kirkham we will make an exceptional engine block.
Then we want to make some billet heads! Anybody got any good ideas how to machine a good water jacket around the combustion chamber?

[ERA Chas]

Thank you for coming on to clarify and enlighten. Did not associate "Cindrich' with 'Sandwich'-but your customers knew that.
My screen name explains why.
Thanks too for the tech details and future product plans.
You guys are off the 'Cool Scale'.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by tirod

1. It does not mean the material it's being machined in is better, or that the final result will be stronger.

2. It just looks cool.

Answers:

1. False
2. True

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Sandwich

.
Then we want to make some billet heads! Anybody got any good ideas how to machine a good water jacket around the combustion chamber?

See if Bill Mitchell will share a bit about the (cast) Warhawk LS 7X heads (and block)-it won't be free advice though I'm sure.

[Jerry Clayton]

Your welcome to contact me and we can work out a compensation contract

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Sandwich

Anybody got any good ideas how to machine a good water jacket around the combustion chamber?

Machine the head in two pieces. A top half and a lower half (not necessarily equal halves). The lower half mating to the block deck. Then you can machine the jackets to any shape you want. Also may make the ports a bit easier.

Getting the two pieces to seal might be a bit tricky, but the head bolts would clamp the two pieces together as well as clamping the head to the block.

Anyway it's one approach.