Vintage Racing

[MOTORHEAD]

Does anyone here know if Kirkhams are accepted by any vintage racing group ?

[1985 CCX]

Probably depends upon sanctioning body.
In SVRA I think yes, COM yes...

The issue is that as values go into the stratosphere many organizations are allowing accurate representations of the original cars to participate as if they do not the organization will fail as most will not risk their investment.

however as rules change

[MOTORHEAD]

Jeff: thanks for your input. That's what I was thinking, that a Kirkham ( or other accurate replica) could be used as a "ringer" to preserve an original. I'm checking with the various organizations as I find them, but don't know of any besides SVRA. COM is what?

[Mark IV]

Peter Klutt is running an "Essex Wire" 427 Kirkham clone in SVRA. Of course they are using a dual plate clutch and a Saenz transmission....you know, just like Shelby used!

It may be racing but it sure ain't vintage!

[legenmetals]

The east coast clubs seem to bend the rules more than the west coast clubs. You can run with SVRA or VARA.

East coast B/P GT-350 engines put out over 550 HP today. They made what... 330 HP in 65-66.


I would call the local club that you wish to run with and speak with one of their tech guys. They will point you in the right direction and welcome you with open arms.

Monterey and Coronado are two venues that require that the cars be truly vintage with a pedigree and period correct.

Rules & Regulations | SVRA

Vararacing.com

[blykins]

Yes they are. Doing a build for a customer right now that's doing it.

550 out of a 289? At 1.9 hp/ci, that seems a little optimistic....

[legenmetals]

550 hp seems very optimistic to me also, but that is a number that is being shared from an east coast engine/car builder.

I am currently building an A/P 289 that will use OEM heads, block, dual plane intake, solid lifter cam, non roller rockers, lots of porting but not much HP. I am building this car around the SVRA gold Medallion Specs. Maximum HP has to be within 20% of original period HP.

[Bernica]

Well, they wouldn't make Goodwood.
From what I heard, Goodwood even refused to allow Jaguar to run their "new" replica alloy XKE's (only 6 produced I think) and they were actually built AT Jaguar! So, your results may vary....

[1985 CCX]

Buddy of mine has ERA GT40 that just dyno'd at 675hp off 347 motor.
Guessing that may be limited in some venues/clubs

[Dangerous Doug]

As bench-warming vintage racing enthusiast, I have to admit I would be disappointed to walk through the paddocks only to find the "vintage" cars I am watching race are not truly survivors of the era represented.

Now, that being said, having a Kirkham or Shelby Al-bodied monster to race would be pretty awesome---assuming I could afford the occasional shunt or off-course excursion. I simply think they do not belong at a vintage race event.

As a spectator, I want to see the actual cars from back in the day.

Pretty please, with sugar on top, don't turn this into a "Real" vs. "Replica" churn...

DD

[LMH]

I would be surprised if the VARA allowed Kirkhams to race but I guess it's possible. If they did, I know the engine has to be the same size and type as original. A modern alloy FE wouldn't be allowed.
Larry

[1795]

I know that SVRA does allow some replicas, I am planning on asking them about which makes they allow, which ones they do not. HSR, which also does vintage racing in the south East does allow GT40 replicas, but I am not sure if they allow cobras. Both SVRA and HSR do allow some GT40's.

As you mention, there is the risk of accidental damage to your cobra, which of course would not be covered by insurance. In addition, I noticed on the SVRA site that they are going to be paying particular attention to the 2" rule this year. that rule being that any roll bar must clear the driver's head (with helmet on) by at least 2". There may bother safety considerations that may have to be addressed as well regarding roll bar support and an emergency shutoff switch will have to be installed on the outside of the car.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

.....I have to admit I would be disappointed to walk through the paddocks only to find the "vintage" cars I am watching race are not truly survivors of the era represented......As a spectator, I want to see the actual cars from back in the day....

I'm with you Doug. What is it about "vintage" that is hard for some to understand?
And 550hp from a 289, or 675 from a stroker 347? I do not recall that these engine configs and/or outputs were available in the day!

Cheers,
Glen

[Mark IV]

The sad reality is that in a few years you are not going to see "vintage racing" as it has existed n the recent past. The number of cars filling the grids has been shrinking as values go up. Fewer owners are willing to risk huge repair expenses and the owner pool is aging as well.

Without proper "recreations" you will not see a full grid for the big dollar classes, i.e. no Cobra vs. GTO battles, no birdcage vs. Testa Rossa dices.

While I believe that some of the classes are perverted (such as GT350s with stroker motors, non original type brakes, Jerico transmissions, trick front suspension, etc.) a properly regulated "Replica/Recreation" class would allow a full grid and era representative type competition. Does a proper 289 Cobra frame that has a composite body vs. alloy ruin the race? Other than safety equipment and allowing for components that are no longer available at other than unobatanium pricing, the cars would truly represent what was raced in the day and allow both drivers and spectators to enjoy "Vintage Racing"

[1795]

Rick,

I agree. Factory Five was able to make an arrangement with NASA to do the Challenge cars, not quite sure why other manufactures do not try to get together with other race organizations and try to do something similar. It is becoming more difficult with increasing prices for the average person to compete in vintage racing, and as you said, most of the more extensive cars are dropping out due to concerns over damage to the car and risking the owners huge investment.

[MOTORHEAD]

What MKIV said.
I'm talking an early Kirkham here, no billet anything, with accurate chassis and suspension with all the warts. One group I checked on required a period correct engine (all iron)so the engine would have to be replaced, so this car would perform pretty much as an original, the exception might be tires.

[1795]

Check with the vintage groups that you might be able to run with regarding tires. Most groups will not allow slicks and require DOT tires. SVRA has a list of allowed tires by race group.

http://www.svra.com/wp-content/uploa...ons_1215.2.pdf

I checked previously with SCCA and you can run a cobra replica in GT1, but they caution that it would probably not be competitive and it would not be vintage. You would be racing against modern vehicles.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by blykins

Yes they are. Doing a build for a customer right now that's doing it.

550 out of a 289? At 1.9 hp/ci, that seems a little optimistic....

900 hp out of a 358 NASCAR engine (2.51 hp/ci)(this comes directly from one of the NASCAR top teams crew member that I have been knowing since he was a kid that grew up down the street from me) is the norm right now, so 550 out of a 289 is certainly doable.........and a lot of those "289's" come from North Carolina/Charlotte shops.......

The top tier Vintage racers are racing with cubic dollars and have been for a long time.......

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

copied directly off Cobra Automotive's site:

Cobra Automotive Road Race Engine

Cobra Automotive Road Race Engine
The Cobra Automotive Road Race Engine pictured here starts with a Dart block that is specially CNC-lightened using our own proprietary program. We then bore the cam tunnel for 55 mm rollerized cam bearings and the entire inside of the block is deburred. We use only the best custom-forged racing crankshafts, made especially for road racing, and smaller low-friction Honda rod pins, while retaining the standard small block Ford main bearing diameters and widths. Custom steel billet Oliver connecting rods are mated with JE dome pistons using special tight-tolerance stainless steel rings. Our cylinder head CNC porting program is very aggressive, and we finish off the porting operation with a thorough hand polishing to assure we get every last CFM of airflow from the intake and exhaust ports. Jesel split-ratio Pro Series shaft-mounted rockers finish the valve train to keep the engine pulling hard all the way to its 8500 rpm redline. We have both dual and single plane intake manifolds available for these engines, featuring more porting than anyone can imagine. On an engine this sophisticated, the stainless steel “stepped” headers are an absolute must if you want to squeeze every last bit of horsepower out of this engine and stay in front of the competition. Every Cobra Automotive Road Race Engine is built with the latest technology in wet sump oiling, including specially modified oil pumps and custom-built aluminum oil pans. Naturally, we use only the best ARP hardware and Race Series Fel-Pro gaskets. In full competition trim, this engine generates 580 horsepower.

[legenmetals]

I just finished a refresh on my #40 Chip Ganassi car, 830 HP on West Techs dyno. Power to wt. (3600 lb.) ratio is 4.33-1. A 2800# 1965 Mustang with 580 HP is 4.82-1.

That's fast with 1965 suspension. No power steering, gear and sector steering box, rear springs and shackles, helical gear transmission. Damn, I want one.