Replacing the rear main seal on side oiler

steve meltzer · #1 (**permalink**) 06-04-2018, 06:07 PM

Damn, I did this job just 4 years ago and it leaks again. the car is KMP #174 and my question is, can this be done by pulling the engine up and forward, without removing it?? Or to do the dirty deed, does the engine need to come out? Forgive me for X posting this on the FE forum, as well. thanx steve

patrickt · #2 (**permalink**) 06-04-2018, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve meltzer

Damn, I did this job just 4 years ago and it leaks again. the car is KMP #174 and my question is, can this be done by pulling the engine up and forward, without removing it?? Or to do the dirty deed, does the engine need to come out? Forgive me for X posting this on the FE forum, as well. thanx steve

Dang, I'm starting to think that car is cursed.

EDIT - Here's a thread giving instructions on doing it. https://www.fordfe.com/viewtopic.php...n+seal#p782688 No, I have never done it myself, all I've done is read the thread.

steve meltzer · #3 (**permalink**) 06-04-2018, 07:42 PM

Indeed, i've replaced a number of things, but that link is not for a Kirkham and the difference is well, a difference. thanx. s

jkg2101 · #4 (**permalink**) 06-04-2018, 08:07 PM

I replaced the rear main seal with engine in car. The cross member is a pain to work around but it can be done. Hardest part was getting the main cap off. I can give you my tricks tomorrow if interested. Engine does not have to move at all.
Justin.

steve meltzer · #5 (**permalink**) 06-04-2018, 10:26 PM

Yes, Justin, i'd love to hear how you did it all the trick you used. please post, or PM me
<scheherazade@swbell.net> much appreciated. we are talking about a Kirkham, right? s

jkg2101 · #6 (**permalink**) 06-05-2018, 04:00 PM

Kirkham (and presumable original AC) FE rear main seal replacement in car:

Sorry no pictures now

Here's is how I did it:

Lift up front end - i used stands that go under the front tires. Jack stands on the frame can be tricky because the frame is tubular, and things can sometimes slide along the frame - once my car fell off a jack because of this

drain oil

Remove oil pan (I have a moroso front sump road race pan). Remove gasket residue

remove rear main cap (2 big studs on my car).

Hardest part - removing main cap. I have a BBM block.
When engine is out of the car, just rock it back and forth a lot and it comes out. Unfortunately, the frame crossmember is in the way on an original frame to some degree.

It's a nice tight fit of the huge rear main cap. I took two long threaded rods and threaded them into the oil pan bolt holes. these were about 2 feet long. I initially tried to use various strategies to pull the main cap straight down. i used a thin razor blade to cut along the silicone sealant along the sides of the cap. The pulling down techniques really did not work at all.

I finally found a way to rock the cap back and forth, doing a little levering against the thick block plate at the back of the engine. this took me a lot of time and effort over a couple days when I had some free time.

Once it came off, that was a huge relief. the actual seal needs to be pushed or pulled around the crank without scratching anything. since my seal was only in place for a few months, with no running time, it was easy to do. there are special curved tools to push it through, but i did not need one.

Clean up all the gasket/sealing surfaces very carefully.

I slid half the rear seal up into place, and then put a tiny bit of silicone sealer on the ends, where it mates with the other half of the seal. I put this other half in the main cap

how to seal the sides of the main cap is a separate discussion. i did not use the rubber seals and nails, but i probably would if doing it again. I pumped THE RIGHT STUFF into the side channels, and put a tiny bit on the other mating surfaces. then torqued the main caps studs down. there is just enough clearance behind the cross member to access these studs/bolts. if the cross member was 2 inches more posteriorly, then it would not be possible.

Also, my engine sits a tiny bit too far forward in the chassis of my car, for reasons I cant explain. You should have enough access by that crossmember if you're engine is in stock location.

then reinstall oil pan, using cork gasket and silicone in the right spots. (i love the flat oil pan surface of an FE with that skirted block), add new oil, and hope it doesnt leak

I personally, without any strong evidence, think the crank dimensions of aftermarket cranks may be slightly off, and so I personally wonder if it is harder to get a good seal. or maybe the rear seals are just a bit off? in any case, my rear main now seeps just a bit, enough to occasionally leave a drop on the floor as opposed to leaving a puddle. i don't know if achieving no leakage is possible.

I also had trouble mounting the damper and the flywheel, because the external dimensions of the aftermarket crank are a tiny bit off

ruined one damper figuring that out.

steve meltzer · #7 (**permalink**) 06-05-2018, 04:53 PM

WOW! that's nearly as difficult as pulling the motor! I too, wonder if it's possible to get it perfectly dry. thanx again for your help. steve

patrickt · #8 (**permalink**) 06-05-2018, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve meltzer

I too, wonder if it's possible to get it perfectly dry....

Another option: Engine Diapers; Keep Accidents in the Diaper, not on the Track!

steve meltzer · #9 (**permalink**) 06-05-2018, 07:10 PM

Patrick, i knew i could count on you for an "outside the box", innovative thought on the matter! s

jkg2101 · #10 (**permalink**) 06-05-2018, 08:09 PM

It's a lot easier than pulling the motor! I have found this car fairly easy to work on because there's not a lot to them and because there is plenty of room around the engine. Much easier to pull the cobra trans than a mid year corvette trans. Much easier to work on the engine than a big block mustang with those darn shock towers.

The FE engines are a nice design in so many ways. Shaft rockers. Skirted block. I don't like the pushrods that go through the intake. And I don't like how the rear seal leaks. But I think the seal problem is more related to imperfect aftermarket parts.

steve meltzer · #11 (**permalink**) 06-05-2018, 10:24 PM

yes, most things on the car are easy, but I can't see how you can remove an Aviad pan without moving the motor, as the Kirkham X-piece appears to preclude the pan removal.
do you have an Aviad pan, and somewhere in your description you say "when the engine is out of the car....", but, it never comes out. can you clarify that (about 1/3 way through your excellent description). thanx again. s

Tom Kirkham · #12 (**permalink**) 06-05-2018, 10:50 PM

An Aviad oil pan can be removed in the car. I did it on a two post lift with a transmission jack. I lifted the engine by jacking up on the scatter shield front lip. It is a very tight squeeze to pull the oil pan out from the cross member. A major pain is the oil pick up tube being bolted to the windage tray. If you do not have a lift forget it. I think it is faster to just bite the bullet and pull the engine.

steve meltzer · #13 (**permalink**) 06-06-2018, 07:51 AM

Thanx so much, Tom. With the pan out, can you do as good a job with the rear main seal and main caps, as you can with the engine out, or is just better all the way 'round to just "bite the bullet"? thanx steve

Tom Kirkham · #14 (**permalink**) 06-06-2018, 08:03 AM

The cross member under the rear main and bell housing shield will be in the way, making it difficult to put the seals in.
Of course putting the oil pan back in (remember the stud holding the oil pick up tube) is even more difficult than getting the oil pan out.
Holding the oil pan gaskets and windage tray in place is also a pain.

Something to keep in mind is I have a forklift with a boom to pull engines. So pulling engines is very easy.
If I only had a cherry picker, I would leave the engine in.
However, if I did not have a lift, I would pull the engine.

steve meltzer · #15 (**permalink**) 06-06-2018, 09:04 AM

once again, thanx, Tom. I have a lift (the one i have available is a 4 post, drive on) + a cherry picker + an engine stand, which for this hunk 'o iron is barely adequate. Pull the engine? thanx again. s

Tom Kirkham · #16 (**permalink**) 06-06-2018, 09:23 AM

IMHO it is a toss up.
One way is more work, the other way is a lot more swearing.
Some of the pan bolts on the drivers side are not fun either (you will want 1/4 inch wobbly sockets)

I think your chances of success are better if you pull the engine.
Try leaving the engine in, and if the swearing gets too loud, then pull the engine.

steve meltzer · #17 (**permalink**) 06-06-2018, 09:46 AM

Tom, thanx again for your insight. think i'll just pull the engine, tho' i can cuss with the best of 'em.....one ex-wife + a stint in military school makes me pretty &^%$()_+_^ profecient! s

patrickt · #18 (**permalink**) 06-06-2018, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve meltzer

Tom, thanx again for your insight. think i'll just pull the engine, tho' i can cuss with the best of 'em.....one ex-wife + a stint in military school makes me pretty &^%$()_+_^ profecient! s

Uhhh, I dunno... that diaper's lookin' better by the minute.

jkg2101 · #19 (**permalink**) 06-06-2018, 03:56 PM

i have a front sump road race pan, i think it is moroso, but not the extra long pan that original cobras used (with full length sump I think). The rear half of my pan is shallow. There was no problem removing this around the cross member,

accessing the oil pan bolts should be do-able for any pan - the front ones are tricky due to the wide sump, but not a big challenge.

i cant speak for the full length pans that might be deeper in the rear?
but assuming the pan can come off, the rear seal is much easier to do in the car than removing engine.

steve meltzer · #20 (**permalink**) 06-06-2018, 10:56 PM

I have an Aviad pan: more shallow at the rear. full length. I've had a change of heart and think i'll try to do this in situ on Sunday. Have a good pro mechanic to help, who thinks we can do it. more later. s