Kirkham Marketing Question For Garage Therapy

[David Kirkham]

Fellow Car Nuts:

We have been working hard on studying ways to expand our offerings to the public. We have a marketing question and would appreciate any feedback you all could give.

How many of you would be interested in purchasing one of our cars at a significantly reduced price if you could do more of the work yourself—like A LOT more of the work?

The question of lowering the costs of the car particularly hit home this past week as we delivered several ”Garage Therapy-cars in a box” to our formerly fiberglass customers. I got to thinking…the “assembly” time for us was a couple of hours of packing parts in a box vs. the normally long drawn out process of completely assembling a car. Hmmmm…where else could we cut hours—and hence, cost—out of our car? Where else could we maximize value for our customers?

As I contemplate the production of our cars, I keep asking myself the same questions. What exactly do our customers buy from us? Why do customers buy from us? How can we get more customers to buy from us? What are our problems? What are the problems that face our industry?

I keep coming back to the same conclusions. We make aluminum bodies--no one else can do that (at least in the quality, quantity, price combination we do). We make cool billet suspensions that are the nicest I have seen anyone make anywhere--but I am sure anyone could put their mind to it and make them as well. We assemble cars really nicely--but, I am sure there are others who can as well. We sand and detail our cars really, really nicely--but I am sure others can as well, (just look at Brent Mill's, Allan Allarab's, Pat Buckley's, and Tom Decker's cars—(and on and on). They are all as nice as what we do--if not better.

Wait a minute...

We MAKE aluminum bodies—no one else can—BUT, we also sand, assemble, cut holes, etc, etc, etc, that ANYONE else can do. What would happen if we let customers do what they can do and we do what we can do? What other industry has customers who actually want to work on a product they buy? Customers can not generally weld and turn a flat sheet of aluminum into a body, but they CAN sand or paint a car so it looks really nice—and save money in the process.

I really got to thinking about the brushing of our cars and the enormous amount of time that takes. If our customers are going to paint their car, then all of that time is a complete waste.

ALL CARS START OUT LIFE LOOKING LIKE THIS. How many of you would be interested in purchasing one of our cars without all of the detail work on the aluminum so you could save money and do it yourself?

Of course, we would still sand, assembly, and detail cars for those customers who wanted to purchase them that way from us.

David

[David Kirkham]

Another pic showing the slight warping of the aluminum panels after welding. The vast majority of the warping is restricted to these panels because of the shallow (flat) shape of the side of the fender and the long weld. I chose the worst picture on purpose. The other welds do not warp nearly as much. (See the above photo on the nose of the car.)

The warping is easily fixed by a competent body man.

[TerrysSPF]

Hmmmm.............A Kirkham "kit". Very interesting and I think there would be a market for it. Especially since it's arruminum!

Of course, as with all "kits", I guess it would depend on each person's individual talents and how much time they have to spend on their car (and how much that time is worth to them). How much prep work is involved in getting the alum. ready for paint? How many people here have good paint facilities / equipment in their own garages? I would definately have to pay someone to paint the car, so then it turns into: How much am I saving by having someone else do a good paint job vs. the Kirkham's?
I would suggest putting together a "kit" price and let everyone judge for themselve if it's worth it to them (basing it on their own individual talents). I would say that there would definately be a market for it. I know a lot of guys that can put their own cars together from scratch, but "time" is an issue for some.
Perhaps put together a couple of "kit" forms with some more detailed than others (like delux kits where you guys do more of the work / assembly).
Neat idea David and I'm sure there's a market for it. Where else can you get a high quality, exact repo aluminum body "kit"?

[Adrian472]

David
Interesting thought!
Adrian

[MOTORHEAD]

David:
One downside to your theory is you are leaving your reputation for building the highest quality replicas vunerable to downgrading because of poor build quality by some amature builder . You no longer have quality control. Someone does a poor or unsafe build that other knowledgable car people see and the builder says " oh yeah, it's a Kirkham" . That may scare a potential buyer, so yes, you sold a lower price unit, but you just lost another potential customer. Just playing Devil's advocate.
Personally, making your cars "more affordable" decraeses the value of mine, which was bought as a "rebuilder", but the price I paid was determined from the new complete car price at the time.
I know, these cars are not for investment purposes, but I'll bet your other previous customers would hate to see their cars value decrease. I know it's sort of comparing apples to oranges, but a lot of people don't look at it that way. They will think " why should I pay 60-100k for this complete turn-key used Kirkham, when I can buy this basic kit for (insert price). Even if they can foresee every additional expense for parts, they will not include their time (labor) and their final tally will make the factory completed or pre-owned car look like it's overpriced. That will affect used existing car prices.
Just my.02cts

[daltondavid]

Motorhead, I beg to disagree with you on the resale values. This is also why I believe KIRKHAM Should create a Registry for their Vehicles. I am sure that way you could look in the "REGISTRY" and see that the Particular Vin is for a "Do it yourselfer" or a KIRKHAM Built Car. This way a potential "Used Kirkham" buyer could reference the vehicles creation. I shopped this Market tough for 2-3 Years and talked to the former owner of My car for a year! I researched the Builder as well as Shelby. I decided that I was better off Buying a Las Vegas Built CSX car finished at HRE Motorcars. Or I could still be in line waiting for what will forever be referred to as a "MEXICAN COBRA"! Something very unappealing about the Country of origin as far as future desirability is concerned. I think that in the Business world, you have to consistently reinvent yourself and let the others follow. Lead by example. I think it will work out for all concerned. espescially the owners of cars such as yours that were done by KIRKHAM initially!! it basicly puts you in First class and they will always be riding in economy!!

[Power Surge]

This definitely does raise a lot of questions. And I don't think they will be ones that are easily answered. Many people will have different opinions, but then again, that's the reason for the poll.

As you know David, I am, buying KMP 357 from you guys. Since I am buying the car already built from you guys as a roller, it has given me lots of ways of looking at "what ifs". What if I could have bought it as a kit? What if it was filed instead of brushed? What if I could have bought it with less parts? What if it had this part instead of that part? Etc etc. So being in the position I am in, here are MY thoughts on the subject....

Naturally everyone wants a quality car, as cheap as possible. Heck, it's human nature, and goes for pretty much any item for sale. And some of us just don't have the cash to lay out for a top dollar quality car. I know I don't; I'm going out of my mind trying to scrape up the last few Gs for KMP 357. So you ask if it would have been better if I could have paid less for a less complete car. I think that I would, but it would depend on what defines a "less complete" car. In my case, building cars is what I do, so for me, it wouldn't be a big deal if I had to install the suspension, brakes, wiring, interior, etc. But I don't do body work. So I wouldn't be doing any body sanding, or paint work. And since that means I have to pay someone to do it, I'd rather pay extra and get the body brushed from you guys. The flip side of that, is you may get a body shop owner who has no problems doing the body, but doesn't do mechanical work. So he'd probably want the roller with file finish.

Whether the option of buying a "kit" Kirkham lowers the value of the car, is a tricky question to answer. As mentioned already, one owner who built his car poorly, could turn away plenty of prospective buyers who see his car at a show or something. I think the key to a "kit" version, is the parts. If you maintain the current parts, and all the customer has to do is put them together, that's pretty hard to screw up. At that point, it's just a matter of assembly. So if you can sell a car that comes with everything that comes on a Kirkham built roller, and all the customer has to do is put it together, then that could work.

Now lets talk about the materials, as you mentioned. You guys do make some neat suspension parts. For me, it's not that big a deal, because I am more into originality. Even though KMP 357 has all the modern brakes and suspension, I'd much rather have the original looking parts. But I'll deal with it. Most other people probably love the Kirkham parts, and I think that's a plus. Now getting back to the body, I don't think it is a good idea to offer it unfinished. Again, there may be guys that are confident enough to cut their own holes, but I think most guys would not want to do it. If you slip up cutting a headlight or roll bar hole in a glass body, it's not big deal, even the most novice builder can do a fiberglass repair. But slip up cutting a hole in an aluminum body... oh boy. I know for me, I asked you to cut the sidepipe holes, because I didn't want anything to do with it. Where I'm heading with this is, leaving the major body prep to the customer, leaves Kirkham open for getting the blame for a poorly cut roll bar hole, or crooked headlight.

You guys currently already offer lots of options. And your rollers already come "standard" with the file body. I think personally, if you want to cut some cost out of the price tag, take it from assembly labor, but without sacrificing overall quality. In other words, let the customer bolt on and assemble, and keep the cutting, fabrication, and prepwork at Kirkham.

Another option you might consider, is to offer a package that's less PARTS than a roller. Maybe something like a roller minus body. This way a customer can buy the rolling chassis from you, install the drivetrain and the rest of the workings, and then buy the body later on once the car is in the "go cart" stage. THAT would probably attract more buyers in my opinion. Let the car be purchased in "stages", and this way the vaule does not drop, but you now put the car in more people's reach.

Anyway, I hope this helps, and hopefully I'll be able to get KMP 357 on it's way here soon.

[ENTDOC]

Kirkham built,essentially turn key minus car= no apology quaility and universally respected car,with predictable resale value.

Home built Kirkham kit= who the hell knows,and now I have to start explaining my cars pedigree

Future Kirkham ,unfinished aluminum body that fits on a pinto frame = affordable car for the masses that looks just like mine at the car shows

chuck

[MOTORHEAD]

I think Sal's comments are on target. If you put out a kit, it should be IDIOT proof !! But as somebodys siganture line says, " its hard to make anything idiot proof, because idiots are so unpredictable" (or something like that)
BUT.... what if.. somebody does a nearly perfect assembly, but forgets one nut on a suspension or steering or brake part, and that causes an accident, and the lawyers come out of the woodwork, can you protect yourself ??
Again, just playing devils advocate!
BTW, Best wishes to you and your family for a Happy and prosperous New Year!!

[David Kirkham]

Motorhead,

You put your own car together and I am sure it is a nice car. I think, by and large, most people do nice work on a car that is this expensive and so much a part of themselves.

Your comments are, nevertheless, appreciated. I have had the same thoughts over and over.

Chuck,

I have had the same thoughts and I am keenly aware of the resale value of our cars. As you know, we work hard to keep our current customers happy.

Sal,

The kits would come with all the parts, bolts, etc to minimize the trauma to the customer and to make all of the cars high quality. We are not interested in poor quality anything. Nevertheless, these are just thoughts.

David,

Many thanks for your thoughts.

David

[luke-44]

Originally posted by Power Surge
Another option you might consider, is to offer a package that's less PARTS than a roller. Maybe something like a roller minus body. This way a customer can buy the rolling chassis from you, install the drivetrain and the rest of the workings, and then buy the body later on once the car is in the "go cart" stage.

David - isn't a critical aspect of your design the attachment of the body to the chassis? If you get customers screwing around with mounting bodies, then quality can really suffer, imho.


My thought is this - give me a frame/chassis and a box of parts with a manual - base price is filed or optioned up to sanded. I'll take it from there.....hey, wait a minute - doesn't that sound exactly like the Kirkham F idea, only in aluminum?

[Power Surge]

Originally posted by luke-44


David - isn't a critical aspect of your design the attachment of the body to the chassis? If you get customers screwing around with mounting bodies, then quality can really suffer, imho.

Bruce, that's a good point. I don't know exactly how the body mounts, but from what I've read, I think it attaches to a frame substructure, which is part of the main chassis. If that's the case, then maybe Kirkham should consider making that substructure "bolt" to the main frame. This way the body can be removed for major repairs, engine and trans install, and then they would also have a way to sell a rolling chassis and let the customer purchase the body later. Personally, I think a customer removable body would be a huge selling point. I cringe when I think of the idea of swinging the motor and trans in the car, with that nice aluminum body in place. Just food for thought.

[rbray]

Luke-44,
I was thinking alone the same lines. As a hobbiest I'm not sure I could mount the body to the fame and get all the gaps to line up.

[jeffkmp]

My concern is about quality control!!!If anything I would like to see the upper end kirkham complete cars at a higher price.It is nice to know all the cars built by the kirkhams look great at this point!!

[MOTORHEAD]

David:
Just went to your website to check my memory. As I thought, the"pricing" page shows 39.9 for a basic UNASSEMBLED 427, then when you click on "whats included for 39.9" and scroll down to "whats not included" it lists "basic ROLLER, 39.9K"
So which is correct? Unassembled or Roller
Also it lists factory assembly at $4900 in addition to the 39.9, which should price the ROLLER at $44,800. If this is true, than your KIT price IS 39.9, or the same as a Superformance turn key minus. Why go lower? Your car is at least 20K superior than the SPF, (nothing wrong with SPF, was all set to buy one myself, but decided to put almost that amount into a burned Kirkham !! They look the same (almost) from the outside, but the similarity ends there!) Your cars are masterpieces, and should be priced accordingly. I say this from the perspective of one who has worked with aluminum, steel tubing, and engines for 40 years, and I still feel proud and privilaged to own it, even though it is still in pieces, although I am making some progress on it, which I will chronical in a future thread.
Two business axioms come to mind:
"Don't give away the farm", and;
"Don't leave too much money on the table"
BTW re; your previous post: No, my car is not nice at the present time, it is still a collection of parts, but thanks for the vote of confidence anyway!!

[ENTDOC]

David,to that point I cannot disagree. chuck

[Bud Man]

David:

I would certainly entertain it, albeit with the obvious "caveats" that have been covered so far in this thread.

Personally, I would still like to see you take another stab at a totally 'glass car, or at least one with aluminum boot, bonnet and doors. I say this not because I am trying to dilute your expertise, or cloud your aluminum "signature" within the industry, but because there are concrete advantages to glass cars, both in terms of practicality and ease of repair. There is significantly more to cost of ownership with these cars - particularly those crafted in aluminum - than the original purchase price, and such a car would better cater to that person on a tighter budget.

BTW, got an aluminium hood scoop lying around?

Jim

[Double Venom]

I think I have some experience that might be worthwhile on this. For years after I opened my first Classic-Restoration shop, I refused to paint anybody else body work, i.e.; Ed, I just did all my own body work but I want your paint work on it. I think I had been in business for about 5 years when a 'retired' body man asked me to paint his truck. I knew he was on a fixed income and had done great work in the past, I agreed, and shall I say the body work was a little less than perfect, It was a truck, it was his truck and he did the work. Not a problem.

I'll bet it was a full six months later that I had heard people were asking him, "who in the world did your truck?" He, the owner didn't lie, he just didn't tell the whole truth. He simply stated "Ed" did it!" I did loose work over that affair, and was never so happy to see anybody move to Florida in my life. Needless to say, to this day I will not paint over someone elses body work.

I think maybe 'daviddalton' might be on track. Registry for "self assembeled" and for KMP assembeled.

Don't get me wrong, I wish I could afford a KMP Cobra. I would love to paint KMP's Cobras, I would love to work on KMP's Cobras. I would, (if possible) buy a KMP 'kit' Cobra.

David, go carefully on this, as I know you will.
DV

[David Kirkham]

Chuck,

Thank you. I wish you a very Happy New Year.

Motorhead,

Sorry for the confusion on the website. We will clarify what we meant by "roller."

We don't intend to give away the farm. We are just probing the waters.

Thank you for your kind words.

Luke,

All of the cars will have the body already mounted. I only had a picture of a body which was not mounted. I was just using the pictures to show what the body would look like. I doubt many of our customers are able to mount the body. It is quite difficult and complicated. (It is actually harder than taking a flat sheet of aluminum and beating it into a body.) Sorry for the confusion.

Jeff,

We are keenly aware of how our cars look and quality control. We are working very hard on an extensive, web-based assembly manual to help customers put the car together correctly--so they all look nice in the end.

Sal,

We would love to be able to remove the body. It is extremely complicated to do. We have been thinking about it for years.

David

[Lew Ledyard]

David:

One of your costs that can be reduced is in the area of responding to build or maintenance questions. This has to be a big part of your day. Offer a manual with assembly/maintenance instructions. Also a parts book listing not only the major parts but the intended minor parts (like the correct fastener spec and size, part numbers for items that can be sourced from companies other than KMP). This would eliminate a lot of the hassles for both the builder and for KMP. There would be no need to call up (and therefore no need for you to field calls) when the owner/bulder needs to find out which motor mount, voltage regulator, radiator hose or some other part to order from the local NAPA guy. I am not advising that you stop taking customer calls. However, I am sure that a lot of folks call because they just have a simple question about parts, assembly or maintenance. I am sure a lot of the various builders and owners call with the same questions too. If there was a detailed manual and parts list, then we could more easily figure it out for ourselves.

This would go a long way to ensuring some consistancy in the finished KMP cars. Also, if you had to answer less call you would have more time for brushing and sanding!