Shelby vs a Kirkham (aluminum)

[rsimoes]

Without insulting anyone what are the advatanges of a Shelby vs a Kirkham and vice versa? (both in aluminum) I know they are both outstanding cars.

I'm strictly speaking about mechanically, fit and finish, closeness to orginal, etc.

This is what I have so far:

Points to Shelby:
It's a Shelby car that comes with a CSX s/n
Comes painted



Points for Kirkham:
Lighter weight by a couple hundred pounds


Drawbacks for Shelby:
Heavier


Drawbacks for Kirkham:
No paint (if you want a painted car as I do)


What am I missing?

[The Dreamer]

For me it was simple, the Kirkham is much cheaper with no loss in quality. CSX number and name weren't worth a dime to me. In fact, I think I much prefer the billet suspension and other pieces the Kirkhams offer, if only for the look.

[W. MITTY]

rsimoes,

I fully believe that your question is a sincere one, and I wish that I could tell you that you would get dependable advice on this subject on Club Cobra. However, a number of people who post here have a very pronounced agenda when it comes to the differences between Kirkham and Shelby,and truth is the first victim of said agenda. My advice would be to disregard 90% of what you hear or read, and visit both manufacturers in person. After you do this, I think that you will be very comfortable with what you decide upon.

As for me, I'll tell you that I couldn't be happier with my decison to go with Kirkham. Now disregard what I just said and find out for yourself.

[weekendwarrior]

As with any toy the first question is what are you going to do with the car.

1. Car shows

2. Daily driver

3. Weekend Driver

4. Race Track

What engine are you choosing.

Many factors to think about. I have a KMP with a stainless frame which works for my seaside environment and was the most important factor to me in my choice. I also like the bare body so I do not have to worry about paint chips, which will happen on the public roads. I also like the evolving suspension work that KMP is doing, but I have an area with twisty roads.

What are you driving skills?

Many many questions you have to ask yourself. Try a piece of paper with Pro/Con and see where it leads you.

Good Luck

[BMK]

What's the difference in price?. Is price an issue?.



If price was not an issue I would go for the Shelby as I would be able to say..

"yes it's a Shelby and it's real, it has a CSX number etc. etc..



Unfortunately we cannot get either over here without selling a cattle or sheep station. The import duty and customs kill us.

Have fun in your selection/decision

Bernie

My $0.02 worth.

[REAL 1]

Why did you start two threads on the same issue?

See my response on the other thread.

[xlr8or]

rsimoes,
Dreamer and Mitty make good points.
I see two major items:
1. How much you personally value of the CSX vin and signature. you pay a premium for it.
2. Who are you comfortable doing business with. There are people on the forum that will tell you they had great experiences and those that have issues with either company.

I am very happy with my Kirkham car and the company as a whole because they gave me the opportunity to get the car I wanted at a price I was happy with. Would I like to have a CSX car? Absolutely but I personally don't value the VIN and Signature as much as others on this forum and didn't want to pay for it.
Do what works best for you. They are both great cars.

[Thorin]

Evan,

The reason he posted the same post twice, here and in the Shelby forum, is he felt people who responded from each forum might be a little prejudiced (see you post in the Shelby forum) By getting both points of view, he could discern where the truth might be located.

Just a thought

thorin

[rsimoes]

Okay, let me clarify a few things:

1) I didn't ask about the value of Carroll Shelby's signature, name plate or CSX # I understand it does add value to the car. You pay more and also sell it for more. I am taking that into consideration. But I didn't ask about it.

2) The car will be used for shows, weekend cruising, going to work on a nice day and a race track here and there. Not drag racing, but oval track or road race, but not often.

3) It will have an aluminum 427

4) I want it blue with double white stripes, because it's the way I always dreamed of it.

5) I posted the same post in two forums because I figured I would get Shelby loyalists at the Shelby forum and Kirkham loyalists at the Kirkham forum and I wasn't sure both groups would read both forums.

6) I am comparing them as machines, mechanically, fit and finish, performance (with identical engine and with the best each manufactorer has to offer in suspension, brakes, but with the 15 inch wheels, because once again, that's the look I want, like the original, part of that dream)

By the way do either of these have the option of coming with a rag top and side windows?

Please let me know if you need any further clarification.

Ps. I do plan on visiting both manufacturers before making the final decision.

I met Carroll Shelby at a show. . .

[weekendwarrior]

rsimoes,

How original is original?

1. Wiring

I know that Kirkham can wire the car with Lucas or newer Painless wiring.

The newer Shelby cars I have seen, have modern wiring, check to see if they still offer Lucas wiring. Do you mind GM fuses in the engine bay?

My car still has the Lucas parts faux on the firewall but will has the modern stuff hidden in the car, looks original but has the dependablity of the modern.


2. Puke Tank

Kirkham has the puke tank.

Shelby moves the engine back towards the firewall several inches(not original position), check and see if they offer the puke tank after doing so. Most newer Shelby car I have seen do not have a Puke Tank.

If you want all the 1965 details, most likely you will have to do it yourself or find a builder to do it for you.

Suspension

Both use a more modern Suspension but Kirkham can sell you an exact reproduction of the original pieces.

How far from the original 1965 car are you willing to stray?

Original is a loaded word, how original do you want to be and what are your build skills. Are you building the roller or is someone else?

If you want to replicate a CSX3000 which some members consider the ultimate the Kirkham is the place to start and they have the original parts to do so.

Have fun.

[TampaFla]

How long do you want to wait after you order - seems like (from what I've read on this forum) there's a huge "waiting period" difference to consider also.

[Allan A]

When we were looking at cars the price delta was a couple of grand. But now it is much larger, I met a guy at SAAC who paid $27k for a complete KMP roller. At that number you would have plenty of cash to make it more original.

Allan

[Bud Man]

When I bought #142, the decision was much easier. I wanted a car that was as close to the original product of the 60's as could be had. Shelby offered an aluminum car, but their body suppliers (Kimmins, et al) seemed to be a bit unreliable, so it was difficult to pin down a car. Their roller price was also astronomical. When they finally had the good sense to use Kirkham's bodies and frames things began to look up in terms of supply, but the pricing was still in the stratosphere. Then the clouds parted. Kirkham once again started selling to the general public (all of their product was going to Shelby). Wow... Original spec everything. Chassis, suspension, Girling brakes, Lucas wiring, electricals, everything. About as close to to AC Thames Ditton as you could get, if AC at Thames Ditton was still around...

In the 5+ years since I built # 142 a lot has changed. It is undoubtedly now a "better" car, as the Kirkhams have always managed to merge an engineers penchant for best function and quality of construction with the purist's desire for authenticity. A few years ago, they generously offered to upgrade my cars suspension and brakes to the new, more popular billet/Wilwood set up, but I declined, as I like the original cars 60's technology, warts and all. It becomes a true time machine every time I take it out. When you make your choice, remember also that the nature of these cars demand attention - sometimes lots of it - and its helps big time to have a strong, accessible and supportive manufacturer. With a Kirkham, you get that, besides making the acquaintances of some awfully nice people. That aspect continues to enrich my experience, even after these five years of ownership.

Bud

[rsimoes]

It seems that the the Shelby is about 300 pounds heavier than the Kirkham. (aluminum body and block and rear on both)

Does anyone know if this is really true and why?

[maurice19]

Hi Bud,

On the post about throwout bearings, I notice you use the Mcleod hydraulic. Do you use a 3 prong or diaphram?

My trans.is(t-600 Tremec) and the dealer is going to install one for me and his worker seems to think that the pressure plate should be diaphram.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Maurice Lawrence
Sacramento

[decooney]

Originally posted by maurice19


Hi Bud,

... worker seems to think that the pressure plate should be diaphram. Any advice would be appreciated.
Maurice Lawrence
Sacramento

__________________________________________

Maurice,
I run a McLeod diaphram 12" disc and pressure plate setup as recommended, with an external hydraulic slave for easy servicing.
The diahpram setup works great. FYI: Contact David Kee. David can give you sound professional advice if you are looking for other 2nd/3rd opinions and if you still have any questions.

[maurice19]

Hi Duane,
I had Keith Craft provide the complete clutch setup all ready for my Shelby I just recieved.

They provided the Ram competition series long style 3 finger competition pressure plate and 11 inch clutch. With a delete for the slave type throw out, with the understanding that I was going to go hydraulic.

I have #318 Kirkham and am going with their reccommendation and using the internal hydraulic throw out bearing.

My trans, to be picked up today, is the Tremec T600 with the shortened drive shaft.
I am having Moderndrivline install the Mcleod hyd.throwout bearing today and they suggest that there might be a problem using the hydraulic withe the 3 finger type.

That`s what I was referring to in my question.
I think I remember in one of your posts that you used A Ram setup. Was your Ram diaphram or 3 finger type?

Thanks for answering my question at such a late hour.

Maurice Lawrence

[weekendwarrior]

Originally posted by rsimoes


It seems that the the Shelby is about 300 pounds heavier than the Kirkham. (aluminum body and block and rear on both)

Does anyone know if this is really true and why?

rsimoes,

Does Shelby use steel uprights and A arms etc. Does Kirkham use Aluminum unless you ask for the steel original pieces?

Is Aluminum lighter than steel?

You need to call the manufactures, they will help you.

[decooney]

Hi Maurice,

I can't imagine your engine builder would recommend something that has not already been tested and proven. I don't know KC, but he has built engines for a number of friends. Should be ok. However, I'm like you and research everything just to be sure.
I used an internal RAM Hyd-B a long time ago and cannot comment if it is the same as what you have. I believe RAM may have made some changes. I did have a 3-finger pressure plate at that time. In my case, with the RAM I used, it never quite worked as smooth as I would have hoped. There was aways a travel mismatch even after several adjustments and shims along with messing with that older RAM setup. Again, the new RAM might be improved. I have no direct experience with the new RAM saetup. Again, a few years ago I then tried the Tilton internal Hyd-B setup. It popped the seal 3 times, and I WAS using it with a diaphram pressure plate. From the installs/tests I did back then, the 3-finger style pressure plates require less travel to activate vs. a diaphram setup. I treat each situation as a case by case basis.

Hard to say without testing it.
Duane

[maurice19]

Thanks Duane,

I just got back from Modern Driveline with my T600 and Mcleod hyd bearing installed.

The owner assured me it will work well as compared with his helper not knowing for sure.

I let you know.

Maurice