Shelby vs a Kirkham (aluminum)

[Kerr]

Hi, Im new here and this is my first, so im sure it will not mean a lot.

I cant speak for one or the other, because i dont own eithor one.

from a 67 corvette prospective, i would rather have a non matching number, good paint and interior driver, (like i have) than i would a mathcing number perfect car that you worry about all the time. See with mine and say a kirkham car you can drive it anyplace you want, Hard to do with the money it take to get a shelby car. at least for me would be.

I would rather loose say $60K in a kirkham car in accident or theft than i would a real CSX car.

I guess it really come down to what you want. Both are grate.

[Excaliber]

If the difference in price was not a compelling issue for me I would go with the Shelby.

The main reason is because I would want to get as close to original specs as possible. The new Shelbys carry his name and the coveted CSX number, that alone means a lot to me. I would not spec my Shelby CSX with any of the new "modern" suspension components. Gimme the "real" stuff, and no alloy engine either, I want to keep it as real as possible.

If original specs were not important to me then I'd save a bunch of money and buy a Kirkham. They ARE different cars, even though they MAY share the same basic body/frame. Then again not ALL Shelbys have their roots with Kirkham. Shelby has certain assembly techniques and uses parts that are different than Kirkham. THIS is one of the things that make the car a Shelby not a Kirkham in disguise.

Is one assembly done better than the other? I would say there are equally as nice, but if I had to choose which assembly is better I'd lean toward Shelby, but thats just a hunch.

[HI Cobra]

What I have gleaned off these threads is that they are both great cars,
but I think I'd rather spend my time driving the Kirkham, then waiting
and wondering if and when I would be getting the Shelby.

[RaceDeck]

KMP = More For Less! Unless you are considering a pre-4000 series, it makes no sense to chose anything but a KMP. They are a hard working family run business who puts out a great product. Now with all of the suspension techology they are adding into their cars, I personally feel they are a superior handling handcrafted vehicle.
Just my $.02

[Lew Ledyard]

I chose a KMP after I asked a very well known Cobra restorer (who has built some pretty nice aluminum Cobra Daytona Coupes which bear CSX numbers and has also come up with his own nice shade of blue paint). He told me flat out: "Buy a Kirkham and save yourself $20,000." I figured that he had seen both cars and worked with both companies so he was probably pretty informed.

[Turk]

How can there be 300 lb. difference between the two cars?

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by Turk


How can there be 300 lb. difference between the two cars?

Jamo's in one of them?

[Jamo]

Here I is, mining my own damn beness...

[Slow8]

The billet suspension/brakes save 100lbs compared to original suspension. Not sure what Shelby is using now though.

The signature and CSX seem to carry a lot of weight. that may be the other 200lbs.

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by Slow8



The signature and CSX seem to carry a lot of weight. that may be the other 200lbs.

[Turk]

Not all Kirkhams have billet suspension pieces. I would say most DON'T. When you compare the two cars side by side or on a scale, unless the fuel cell Shelby uses weighs 300 extra lbs. over the fuel tank Kirkham has, I can't for the life of me see how there could be a 300 lb difference...

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by Turk


Not all Kirkhams have billet suspension pieces. I would say most DON'T. When you compare the two cars side by side or on a scale, unless the fuel cell Shelby uses weighs 300 extra lbs. over the fuel tank Kirkham has, I can't for the life of me see how there could be a 300 lb difference...

Turk, maybe 300 pounds of parts for the Kirkham are on back order? Maybe 300 pounds of parts fell off the UPS truck?

Jim

[David Kirkham]

Turk,

In my "What is going on with all the 289's?" post I tried to explain the differences between an original car's weight and the weight of one of our cars today. I was not comparing our car's weight to the weight of a current CSX4000 series car. We just happened to have a CSX4000 in the shop so we weighed it because we were curious and I posted what we found.

The 300 pound weight difference is not entirely attributed to the differences between a Shelby and a Kirkham--but a very substantial portion of the weight difference is in the engine. As I noted, the CSX4000 had an iron flywheel, block, water pump, and heads. That must have contributed to well over 100 pounds of the extra weight. The Kirkham cars we weighed had aluminum blocks, flywheels, water pumps, and heads. The other 150 or so pounds is made up of about 100 pounds of suspension and 50 pounds of misc parts.

aluminum brake pedals
alumnum jack hooks
aluminum throttle linkage and cross shafts
aluminum differential flanges, side axle housings, nuts, pinion flange, mounts (our differential is over 40 pounds lighter than an orignal differential.) Shelby far more iron or steel parts than we do in the differential. I imagine our differential is about 20 pounds lighter than Shelby's. I'd have to weigh them to be sure, though.

aluminum horn brackets
aluminum fresh air can, system
aluminum gas tank straps
aluminum suspension cups
aluminum steering column
aluminum wiper motor bracket
aluminum wiper tubes and nut
aluminum transmission bracket
aluminum tie rod adjusters
aluminum kill switch bracket
aluminum brake hats
aluminum calipers (Shelby uses iron Baer brakes)
aluminum Penske shocks
aluminum wing nuts
aluminum brake reservoir cans
I am sure there are other parts I am forgetting--not counting the latest ones we are currently developing.

David

[PatBuckley]

Aluminum steering column? Really?

[bret a ewing]

The HP to weight ratio just keeps getting better and better.......

What is the difference in weight between the Alum body and glass?

Bret.

[Turk]

The weight differences would be more meaningful if both cars had iron flywheels, heads, water pumps and blocks.

I for one would dismiss any weight differences between ANY two car unless they had identical engine or NO engine. I would think that would be a more accurate way to highlight differences. Wouldn't you say?

It is like me saying I wear the same size of shoes as Shaquil O'Neil, because I wear 8 pairs of socks when I try his shoes on.

TURK

[David Kirkham]

Pat,

I meant to say "aluminum steering column tube." Our steering shafts are stainless steel. Sorry for any confusion.

Interestingly, Borgeson offers an aluminum u-joint assembly for the steering system and they don't seem to have a problem with it.

I have thought many, many times about using an aluminum shaft, but I have never done it. Actually, the forces on the shaft are really quite small, (think about how little force you can apply--even in a panic--on the steering wheel). I think it is interesting we are perfectly happy with aluminum, and magnesium wheels, uprights and other parts, but everyone gets squeamish (myself included) about aluminum steering shafts. One day I will do the math and figure it out.

Turk,

I agree the weight differences would be easier to understand if we were able to weigh cars with identical set ups. Unfortunately, I don't have any CSX4000 cars here with an aluminum block, heads, flywheel, and water pump to weigh. I wish I did and then I would post that number along side the rest. That is why I was careful to note exactly which cars had what parts so everyone could see the differences.

I would not dismiss weight differences between cars that are not identical because we can measure the exact differences of the weight of the different components and calculate the difference. For instance, a block is about 40 pounds lighter, and the heads are about 40 pounds lighter, and the flywheel is about 10 pounds lighter—for approximately 100 pounds of the weight difference.

Regardless, an iron motor is not 300 pounds heavier than a complete aluminum motor--so there is a very significant weight loss somewhere.

Finally, my comments were very much directed at comparing an original car to what can be achieved on our cars today. There is a very real 300 pound weight difference between our cars with all of the lightweight components, (block, heads, flywheel, water pump included), and an original 427 Cobra. My comments were mostly directed toward the quiet congregation across the pond who have claimed we are dumb for years. It seems Trevor and Gerry may have been right—a car the weight of an original small block DOES handle better than an original iron engined 427 Cobra. I believe the aluminum 427 cars with all of the lightweight parts are now in that envious company the English have been talking about for years. The aluminum engined 427 cars now have the best of both worlds—great power and great handling.

I believe they are correct as I have now had a chance to drive cars of very similar weights and compared their handling characteristics—an original 427 Cobra with an iron engine, a Kirkham 427 with all of the lightweight parts, and a Kirkham small block with all of the lightweight parts. Of course, the weight thing can be taken to extremes and therefore, I prefer the Kirkham Small block for its outstanding handling—and the Kirkham aluminum 427 car is pretty darn great! I overall prefer the Kirkham 427 for its combination of light weight and power, and I finally, prefer the original 427 because it is the coolest car in the whole world.

So one car is not really superior to another—they just fill different needs of different customers.

David

[Turk]

David,
You remain a piece of work. You don't need a CSX4000 with an aluminum motor or any motor to weigh the cars. Just weigh the CSX4308.

How would what kind of engine is either car change anything?

Amazing. Simply amazing! If you want to just argue we can do that too.

If the heads, intake, block weighs 100 more pounds, (I am going to go on a limb here), it probably weighs 100 pounds more whether it is sitting in one of your cars or on a CSX car.

Weren't you the one telling everyone not long ago that there was no difference between theirs and yours. Somehow now you lost 300 pounds.

Finally, my comments were very much directed at comparing an original car to what can be achieved on our cars today."

CSX4000 is NOT an original car!! You start sounding like Evan now. You just got through telling me you didn't have a CSX4000 to weigh, now you start comparing your cars to the originals!!

No, this is not a discussion on which is superior. I wouldn't have the skills and the knowledge to make that assertion. This is about WEIGHT. If I have access to a scale, even I can weigh a car. (WITHOUT THE MOTOR, TRANSMISSION)

[David Kirkham]

Turk,

That is a good idea. We will weigh CSX4308 tomorrow and compare it to one of our cars without an engine that has all of our latest light weight parts. We simply haven't had a chance to do it so I will be glad to add those numbers to my weight data base.

Fortunately, we have one of our light weight cars already ready for delivery on Friday when Rich Lacy will be here to pick up 3 more cars for California.

I have NEVER said there is no difference between a Kirkham and a Shelby. There have ALWAYS been differences between the cars. Today, there are clear differences between the cars and the companies.

You said, "Somehow now you lost 300 pounds." My reference was to our weight loss over an orignal car. Our light weight car is 300 pounds lighter than an original car with iron heads, block, and flywheel. I simply posted the weights, including the composition of the engines on the various cars we have weighed. I have only said I think our car, not counting the engine and transmission, is probably 150 pounds lighter than an original car. Regardless, tomorrow we will know the weight difference between on our our latest cars and a CSX4000 cars. I am very curious to find the differences in the weight.

I never said CSX4000 is an original car. My entire discussion was based on the improved handling of our light weight small block car compared to an original car with an iron block, heads, flywheel etc. I am quite aware of what an original car is.

David

[Turk]

David,

Don't bother. If you are going to install the latest (generation 11?) parts to make the car weigh less than the CSX 4308, I think you probably CAN do that.

The discussion wasn't if you could shave 300 lbs,with the latest and the best. The discussion was whether a CSX4000 car weighed 300 lbs. more. That's all.

Your references BECAME the original car somewhere into your argument. If you mispoke that is OK.

I have no problem with your assertion that KMP weighs less than a comparable CSX3000. It probably does. That proves nothing.. I would not have argued that. I think if you read what you wrote you would see that you were clearly arguing the weight differences with the CSX4000 and your car. Not alloy bits, not aluminum suspensions, just your typical run of the mill KMP and a run of the mill CSX.. I say they weigh the same.

If you were comparing the KMP to CSX3000, why are you weghing the CSX4308?

We didn't get any further this time than we did the last time we mixed it up. I stand by everything I said, and would be glad to drop it and move on. Feeling will not change anytime soon. No sense of providing cheap entertainmemt for other members.