Announcing New Kirkham Billet Aluminum 427 Block

[Excaliber]

SB spelled backward is BS...

[rphubbard]

MRMAX,

The reason Ford did not go with the aluminum block on the 03 Cobra was it could not pass Ford's own durability testing. I saw several aluminum blocks fail and also the powdered metal rods failed. That is why the engine went with cast iron block and forged rods.

Regards,

[rphubbard]

David Seed,
Thanks for posting the link to the SAE Paper. Robert Gardner was my boss at Roush. He was a very smart guy who started at Ford out of high school as a drafter. He moved up into powertrain engineering and spent 30+ years at Ford and then retired and went to work at Roush. He has been in charge of the GT, 03 Cobra and all the Lightning powertrains. Thanks again for posting the article

Regards,

[mrmax]

Ryan, I agree I thought thats where I was headed. I also took it for granted most everyone knows that those F1 motors are 10 or 12 cylinders and only have to survive about 80 laps.

[rphubbard]

MRMAX,

I know where you were headed but the aluminum block for the 03 Cobra was thrown out right away after only a few prototypes were built. I will correct myself and say that the rods were the main cause of the failures I saw but the block added to the problem and is why both were changed out.

As far as F1 engines go, they have a lot of stress because they are running at 18,000 rpms and idle where some engines redline. Also the engines are a key component of the chassis and are considered a stress member. And now a F1 engine has to last 3 race weekends of practice, qualifying and race. So to say they are not stressed in an understatement.

Regards,

[big-boss]

Wow, is this exciting. Actully mentioning F1 technology in an old Cobra Kit car. My powerplant for my new Kirkham is a good old 427 S/o with a bad to the bone set of low riser heads and a solid cam with the 427 steel crank. Nice stock engine. Mainly left over parts. Because after I figure out the car it will slip right in my "Slick 60" Cobra pulling truck and be replaced with a new- Kirkham Block and a set of HR heads. I will want it to sing like my Murcielago. It sounds like it will. Could you imagine back in the day if Ken Miles was given a 427 that weighed less than a 289. Sort of like that Sci-Fi movie where the nuclear aircraft carrier was stuck back in time during the Pearl Harbor attack. History would be different.

[rsimoes]

Originally Posted by rphubbard

MRMAX,

The reason Ford did not go with the aluminum block on the 03 Cobra was it could not pass Ford's own durability testing. I saw several aluminum blocks fail and also the powdered metal rods failed. That is why the engine went with cast iron block and forged rods.

Regards,

But isn't the Ford GT an aluminum 5.4 with a blower?

[Gatorac]

Originally Posted by mrmax

Ryan, I agree I thought thats where I was headed. I also took it for granted most everyone knows that those F1 motors are 10 or 12 cylinders and only have to survive about 80 laps.

Current F1 engines are 8 cylinders and must last 2 race weekends (qualifying and the race) or incur a penalty. The also hit 20k RPM.

[Sizzler]

Can you really take a block that HAD skirts and just chop them off?

It doesn't seem as though there's a replacement at the lower edge of the block for the absent skirts. The bedplate just bolts around the caps doesn't it?

Do you have a wooden prototype of the bedplate?

[David Kirkham]

Hank,

Thanks!

acschlary,

I decided against the splayed caps because I didn't see them used in F1 motors. Actually, the one I saw only had 2 bolts on the mains. (mrmax, I will comment more on F1 motors later).

mr bruce,

Thanks for the link!

quickjack,

I do agree.

rsimoes,

Thank you for your kind words. You car is looking KILLER! It will be done in a few days.

mrmax,

You said,

Originally Posted by mrmax

David, you keep mentioning F1 motors while they are wonderous, they only are 3.5 liters (about 210 cubic inches). Pistons the size of maybe a 12 ounce soda can and most likely similar weight. Sure they spin up to 20k rpm but are not likely to produce stresses like 4.25 bore slug and rod combo.

I imagine you may not be familiar with F1 and the incredible technology that goes into the sport. I have been fascinated with F1 technology, manufacturing, and technology for as long as I can remember. There is NOTHING like it on earth. (Well, perhaps the space shuttle, satellites, and military aircraft--but certainly no automotive engineering).

Just to keep things in perspective, Ferrari is rumored to have spent over $500,000,000 last season alone. (Now, we are talking military size budgets). I have customers who supply F1 with critical components. I have been to their shops, I have talked with the guys who make the parts. I have seen them make the parts. I even have some of their parts. I have seen their secrets (no, I can't tell). I can tell you it is unbelievable. If I could make something 1/10 as nice as some of the parts I have seen I will die and go to heaven straight away. I even keep some F1 parts on my desk to remind me EVERY DAY what the goal is. Interestingly, an F1 rear hub (steel) for $5,000 and it weighs 3.32 pounds (just weighed it) for a cost of $1506/pound.

Below, I have quoted directly from the F1 site.

http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...fo/11/467.html

"The engine and transmission of a modern Formula One car are some of the most highly stressed pieces of machinery on the planet, and the competition to have the most power on the grid is still intense.

Revving to over 19,000 RPM a modern Formula One engine will consume a phenomenal 650 litres of air every second, with race fuel consumption typically around the 75 l/100 km (4 mpg) mark. Revving at such massive speeds equates to an accelerative force on the pistons of nearly 9,000 times gravity. Unsurprisingly, engine failure remains one of the most common causes of retirement in races." (Rumors are they are actually over 10,000 G's now)--added by David.

A typical engine (that we are used to in our cars) will turn about 6,000 rpms. The G loading according to this website

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=85349

is about 1,100 G's for a Chev 350--about 1/10th of an F1 engine. (I haven't checked his math, but it looks right on a cursory reading from my past experience). Granted, that is a Chev 350 and our blocks have longer rods and strokes (bore and weights don't have anything to do with the calculations) but let's double the Chev's 1,100 G's and say our monster Billet 427 generates a generous 2,000 G's and we are and still only 20% of an F1 motor. Their engineering is simply amazing.

The stresses on a engine go up with the SQUARE of the RPM's according to this formula. See link.

http://www.engineersedge.com/engine_...automotive.htm

Further, to add to the F1 block's misery, F1 engines are stressed members of the car.

Now, how does this equate to ribs?

Well, a Porsche flat 12 CAN'T have any ribs--by definition--you can't put ribs between cylinder banks that are on opposite sides of the crankshaft. They even have BOLT on jugs! Merlins (60 degree V-12) don't use ribs and they bolt their jugs on too. If F1's needed the strength to hold the heads together and keep the block from twisting, they would tie the heads together. But, they simply run the intake runners straight up out of the head ports and let the heads hang off in space unsupported. Stiffness between cylinder banks simply CAN'T be a problem in the applications we are talking about. How did I decide what to do? I just looked at what was out there, discussed it with very knowledgeable people, and made a decision--admittedly, standing on the shoulder's of giants.

Now, John Force making 10,000 hp, pulling 5 G's??? when he launches probably needs ribs (and a diaper) as I imagine he IS distorting the bores.

David

[David Kirkham]

Dean,

Thank you for your kind words!

I love your quote,

It's better to shoot for the moon and miss, than to aim for the gutter...and hit it.

I just hope I don't miss too often. But when I do, I get back up and try again.

David,

Thank you for the link! GREAT reading!

Evan,

Who knows? Maybe after you drive one of these babies you will convert to the dark side of modern technology to make things better?

Cobra Ed,

An FE crank is 79 pounds--not sure what a small block crank weighs.

An aluminum 427 flywheel from McLeod weighs 17 pounds.

A complete aluminum (block and heads) 427 engine weighs 558 pounds.

An complete iron (block and heads) 289 engine weighs 542 pounds.

Most people can't believe the big blocks of today are only 16 pounds heavier than the small blocks they raced with in the 60's. Technology is amazing...Evan...are you listening? I'm trying to convert you to the dark side...

Certainly the rotating assemblies of an FE are heavier...but not by much. And they are getting lighter every day...

Ryan,

Thanks for the post. Ryan was actually one of the engineers we spoke with on the project. Thanks for the help!

mrmax,

What most people don't realize is if you take a piece of steel (for example) and load it to 99% of it's ultimate tensile strength it will not break--obviously. BUT if you load it to 99% of its tensile strength a second time, it very well might break--EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NOT EXCEEDED ITS "MAX" TENSILE STRENGTH. You see, it fatigues. Fatigue is the enemy of all mechanical things. But if you load a piece of steel to 50% of its UTS (ultimate tensile strength) you can load it millions upon millions upon millions of times. You are below what is called the "endurance limit" of the metal. At 20,000 rpms in an F1 motor, the piston is going up and down 333 times/second! It doesn't take long for things to fatigue and break at those unbelievable speeds/loads. Frankly, I can't for the life of me see how those engines stay together for even 1 lap.

Gatorac,

The new V-8 must be incredible. That much power out of only 2.4 liters!

Sizzler,

Even if it could be done, I doubt it would be cost effective. The girdle is 100 pounds of raw aluminum. Our girdle bolts around the caps. We do not have a wooden model...yet. But we will soon!

David

[REAL 1]

Dave: Amazing work. You guys are first rate craftsmen. My friends still are amazed at the workmanship of my Cobra's aluminum body and the quality of the frame and welds.

If my original FE ever goes south I would definitely consider your block.
Aside from a weight advantage what other advantage does your block have over the SAI block? Put in laymens terms please for the technically challenged.

May the force be with me.

BossCER: Yeah, your right, but thats why Shelby brought them back again with the Continuation series. But unlike Cobras, the SB are not automotive legends like the ol' BB and Cobras.

Maybe the pretend racers can now put REAL "moders" in them FPSBs. LOL.

[mrmax]

I stand corrected on # of cylinders and displacement for '07 is only 2.4 liters not 3.0 Now only 150 cubic inches. A whole race weekend still is alot less than 500 miles. So who wants to pony up for 5gs for 500? miles? Ryan you certainly know more of fords motor development, what happened with that spray bore technology from the nineties?

[Excaliber]

I can barely keep up with the latest standards on F1 engines! Thought I'd been seeing a bunch of V8's lately, guess the 10 and 12's are out.

[olddog]

The rib issue:

Well if you look at the ends of the block, the two banks are tied together well. So if there is going to be any flexing it will be at the midle two cylinders. If you pay attention, between each cylinder, the block is solid all the way out to the head bolt bosses (bosses may not be the correct term). These bosses are forming a small "I" beam. Considering it is billet. My gut tells me it is going to be quite strong.

Put the block in a press and measure the deflection. In an engine that will not generate 1000 lb-ft of torque, I would think 500 lb of force in the center of the block would be way more than anything the engine will do. The motor mounts alone will put half this force just holding the engine in place. Anyone expecting the block to flex from the engine's own weight? Measure the first block and put this one to bed.

I think too much emotion and not enough engineering calculations, but actual field tests will prove it one way or the other.

[Commander]

It's nice we're comparing things to F1 and top fuel yadda yadda yadda, but folks seem to be losing track of just what is being promised here: a block that's good to 700-800 HP for $5,000+. A block that LOOKS like it could compete in F1 or go in a 3000HP rail, but actually, can't.

There are already blocks out there that are good to 1,500++ HP for $5,000 (and less). That LOOK like original C5 blocks. That have been tested and proven over literally 100's of thousands, millions even, miles.

Personally, the math doesn't work for me.
Personally, if 30 pounds was a critical amount of weight to me, racing, I'd lose it personally. I'd spend the $5K on massage therapists and herbal wraps, maybe some personal trainer time.
Personally, I'd rather buy the cow than take a bath in milk.
Personally, I think by the time I developed any confidence in this block and was willing to buy it, Ford itself will have come out with the new 6.2L Boss engine, with DOHC, efi, di, vvt...that'll have service bulletins, factory support and with some aftermarket work, displace 7 liters, produce just as much power as this block will be rated for and will look about as much like an original sideoiler block as this one will.

Personal opinions, we all have them, these are mine.

[olddog]

Quite a few comments on the 4.6 and 5.4 blocks. The first aluminum cobra blocks were manufactured in Italy. Ford later changed and lightend up the blocks and added ribbing in order to keep the strenght. The later blocks were not as strong, even with the ribs.

By filling the water jackets, they were taking the early blocks to 1500 hp. I will have to pull Sean Hylands book and re-read it, in order to get my facts straight. These little engines have been quite impressive.

[lovehamr]

Service bulletins and milk not withstanding , I think you may have missed the whole point of the block.......weight, not HP potential or cost. All of those factors are secondary goals as stated.

Yup, service bulletins, that's what I look for in a new block. Where did you come up with the milk thing man?

Steve

Ah, I see you added in this; "Personally, if 30 pounds was a critical amount of weight to me, racing, I'd lose it personally. I'd spend the $5K on massage therapists and herbal wraps, maybe some personal trainer time."

I've got to go with you on that one! Hopefully the therapist would bear a strong resemblance to my avatar. HA!

[Commander]

Milk, honey, slippery, slithery, satiny, silky words swirling around in the tub, swirling down and out the drain, leaving nothing but a souring ring.

The cow, the factory, the mother of all things Ford.

Service bulletins are proof that there is thought, engineering and most importantly, support. Not just for the 'friends-of', but for all buyers-of.

And they are distributed across the land, to all good dealerships, or at least all dealerships.

Now, I think the meds have kicked in and it's time for bed. Good night.

[Maricopa]

Cool motor, great concept. I want one in curly Koa (w/flame Maple heads).