Announcing New Kirkham Billet Aluminum 427 Block

[Hank F]

Well said David!
Hank

[David Kirkham]

Sal,

Good idea. I will look into it. But the engineering and tool paths are already done for the Nikasil lined bores. They would have to be bigger to accept a sleeve. For now I will see what happens on the dyno and the decide.

David I,

Repeat after me, "I need a new block. I need a new block. I need a new block..."

David
AKA little red devil

acschlary,

GREAT QUESTION! I had the same one myself. So, I started looking.

There is no side skirt on a Chev 350 and Jeff Gordon runs one at 9000 rpms for 500 miles every Sunday. Look at the Dart picture I posted...no skirt. F1 engines don't have a skirt. Most blocks don't have a skirt--very, very few have skirts. After looking at the real world and what was going on in the real world, I decided skirts were more effective in marketing engine blocks (and on women) than they were in going fast.

Commander,

Yes, I in my post I said, "See the picture of the Dart billet block with ribs and bolt on water jackets." I posted that picture so you could see you can still have bolt on water jackets and ribs. In an earlier post you said, "I object to calling it "moon glow" engineering instead of just admitting that it can't be done and still have the one long water jacket cover in the valley." So, I showed you a picture of where Dart solved the problem by using multiple bolt on water jackets.

We simply elected to not have ribs...or skirts.

Like I said, thank you all for your comments. Questions like these will all have to be answered so customers will feel comfortable buying one of our blocks. I appreciate ALL of the comments! The thing I understand most, however, is many of these questions will have to be answered ON THE DYNO.

David

[xlr8or]

David,
If you decide to do the heads and/or intake, how about a set of billet valve covers to go with it?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Steve;

If you can get me sheet aluminum in 3/4" thick for a $1.50 a pound, please let me know, I'll take a truck load of the stuff and I know of a few shops that will take an 18 wheeler load also..........

David

[Commander]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

I believe the ribs in the valley are moon glow--so do all of the engine builders I have spoken to. The Merlin didn't have them in WWII. F1 blocks don't have them either--if anyone needs strength it is the F1 guys. Do you know of ANY modern production V8s that have them? I just checked our Copper 40 GT we made and it doesn't have them. As you know, people are now putting over 700 hp to the rear wheels in their Ford GT's with the new blowers.

...

David

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Well, I base that on the observations of many, many motors. As I mentioned, the latest Ford 5.4 doesn't have ribs and is capable of 1000 horsepower (more than I need). Perhaps Ford put ribs in later blocks (I don't know, but you mentioned they did) because people were intending to blow them to ridiculous horsepower figures I simply don't intend to achieve. 700 horsepower is enough; 800 horsepower would thrill me as it is a wide margin of safety. (I am not sure why you mentioned I was only interested in 600 horsepower.) I am sorry if you understood me that way--I should have explained things better.

But, the list of engines without ribs is much longer. The Rolls Royce Merlin, and all radial engines of WWII didn't have ribs. Before anyone says that radial engines are a different monster because all pistons push on the same crank journal, remember there are several radial engines that had multiple cylinders in line (albeit twisted to put the other jugs into the air stream.) Finally, one of the greatest race engines of all time, the Porsche 917, produced 1200 horsepower--and it had no ribs...it is a flat (opposed) engine.

After taking all of those things into consideration, I decided the ribs were insignificant in the overall strength of what I wanted to achieve. the length of the water jacket had nothing to do with the decision. I could have made individual plates between the ribs had I been so inclined. See the picture of the latest DART billet block with ribs and bolt on water jackets. (It made me smile to see both of us come up with the bolt on water jacket independently.)

OK, see here's the problem: I remember the issues with your differential design. I now see you saying "I decided the ribs were insignificant"; while I personally know of many many examples from actual block manufacturers with much more experience and many more engineers on staff that ribs are (just a little?) significant.

Me implying you didn't want to be bothered with individual valley cover plates is not me saying it's not possible, because as you've so clearly posted, it IS possible.

Here's the thing. You're producing a billet block. Other manufacturers are producing billet blocks. In the same price range. You're competing with them. They have features you don't, you have features they don't. You might want to study some of their features with the knowledge of their more extensive experience in block design and production. All that'll happen is you'll have a better block, maybe. Or not.

At this point, let the dyno tell its tale. It just seems such a jeckyl and hyde design: soooo strong on the bottom end, and just so-so up top. How is the bottom end interface with the rest of the block? Is it something that could be grafted onto the bottom of a Shelby/Pond/Gensis aluminum block?

[David Kirkham]

xlr8or,

Billet valve covers would be VERY expensive. The billets would be too much. I have thought about sheet metal valve covers, however, to save weight. I have also thought about carbon fiber ones--they are extremely light.

Commander,

I agree; I can't wait to get it on the dyno. Theory is great. Data is much better. I am sure we will learn lots of things on the dyno we never thought about.

As for the bottom end design, it will not work on a Shelby, Genesis, or Pond block. Those blocks have skirts on them and so they will not accept a girdle without putting those blocks on a mill to take the skirts off. Our block has all of the main caps milled out of one piece of solid aluminum. The girdle is then bolted to the block with 4 bolts per main on the interior main webs. The girdle is doweled into place with 10 dowels so the girdle is positively located on each main. It is a very common design for modern engines (and F1) today.

David

[Commander]

That was the question. If the bottom end works out on the dyno, maybe milling off the bottom of another block might make sense. Just strap it down and do a bunch of straight cuts?

instead of this (from Gessford site)


plus this




Prove things first...

[David Kirkham]

Commander,

I haven't thought of that before (milling the skirts off another block) but it should work. You are right, it shouldn't be that hard to do as all you are doing is mounting it and cutting off the skirts level. You would, of course, have to line bore the block afterwards, but that isn't too much of a problem. It would certainly save weight.

David

[Dominik]

GM ZL-1 block including Can-Am blocks made by either Reynoldy or GM(?) had steel liners which were a pain to resleeve in those days...

I believe there was a non-sleeve version, just featuring a coating like Nicasil (spelling?)
Have to check my „Top Secret Can-Am“ booklet.

Dominik, Cape Town

[acschlary]

acschlary,

GREAT QUESTION! I had the same one myself. So, I started looking.

There is no side skirt on a Chev 350 and Jeff Gordon runs one at 9000 rpms for 500 miles every Sunday. Look at the Dart picture I posted...no skirt. F1 engines don't have a skirt. Most blocks don't have a skirt--very, very few have skirts. After looking at the real world and what was going on in the real world, I decided skirts were more effective in marketing engine blocks (and on women) than they were in going fast.

David thanks for the quick response. I understand the new splayed cap design are better than (or at least as good as) the cross bolts; however some of us are looking for the period correct look. Absent the skirts I don;t see this happening. Then again, perhaps you never intended your design to replicate the FE totaly.

Thanks again,
acshlary

[mr bruce]

http://www.worldcastings.com/prods_pages/086210.htm

[quickjack]

The Dart block David posted is generally used in blown alcohol applications making about 3000 HP, so usage wise it is not really a direct comparrison to the Kirkham piece which is not intended to support that kind of abuse.

Cast aluminum has a typical elongation of about 2% before failure, whereas billet has about 10%, so the billet blocks are way stronger than a comparable casting. I think at the intended power levels, the ribs likely are not a big issue.

[rsimoes]

From what I have learned from the Kirkhams, if it has their name on it, it will be what they say it is and do what they say it will do and then some and it is the best.

Theories are great for conversation, but let's wait and see what happens on the dyno and on the street.

Hey Dave, if you'd like, I'll volunteer to put the first 100,000 miles on it for you. 1/4 mile at a time. . . .

[mrmax]

David, you keep mentioning F1 motors while they are wonderous, they only are 3.5 liters (about 210 cubic inches). Pistons the size of maybe a 12 ounce soda can and most likely similar weight. Sure they spin up to 20k rpm but are not likely to produce stresses like 4.25 bore slug and rod combo. By the way nearly all superbike motors are inline 4 cyls. with exception of ducati and honda rc 51. Do you recall 2003 mustang cobra? Was supposed to be aluminium 4.6, block was at its limits with planned 400hp. Ford decided to nix aluminium and go with cast iron to avoid warranty claims from people who do such dastardly deeds as improve exhaust change pulleys etc. . As far as dyno time thats great but an engine dyno cannot accurately duplicate real world conditions thats why all major auto manufacturers have proving grounds. Put a finished motor in a car and thrash it like a customer might and see what happens after 50 or 60 k miles. I don't think this will be as easy or quick as most of us would like it to be. Also the 125 cubic inch motor in my kawi vulcan has a 4.125 bore and 5 inch stroke. It also is not sleeved kawaski engineers found piston speed to be such a problem they limited revs to 5250. it also is not a low perf motor 110hp 150ft lbs tq. This v configuration is a large consideration for side thrust loading in motors with big heavy rotating assemblies.

[RedBarchetta]

History has taught us a lot.

Experts said we couldn't split an atom.

Experts said we couldn't go to the moon and back.

On this one, I'm putting my money on the Kirkhams.

It's better to shoot for the moon and miss, than to aim for the gutter...and hit it.

-Dean

[djseed]

There is a good article published by Ford on the development of the GT 40 5.4 supercharged engine. Ford does the finite element analysis on the block and whole engine to verify it can live with the loads. There are diagrams of block twist and stresses revealed by the supercomputer doing the finite element analysis.

http://www.roushind.com/news_downloa...04-01-1252.pdf

[REAL 1]

Pretty slick.

I still prefer an original 427SO for authenticity though.

However, for all those SB guys..looks like the SB could now go extinct! The power of a BB with the weight of a SB. Who needs a SB anymore?

[CobraEd]

yeah, but what about:

FE crank 100lbs / SB crank 50lbs
FE flywheel 40lbs / SB flywheel 26lbs
FE Intake bolts 1-1/4" / SB intake bolts 3/8"

Not only are these gross weights, but they are also rotational mass which has to be accelerated. Big big issue!!!

[BossCER]

REAL 1,
I finally agree w/ you on one! The SB could go extinct very much the way real Cobras did back in the sixties.

[xlr8or]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Pretty slick.

Who needs a SB anymore?

Who "needed" one before?