Announcing New Kirkham Billet Aluminum 427 Block

[Byots]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Dean,

An FE crank is 79 pounds--not sure what a small block crank weighs.

A complete aluminum (block and heads) 427 engine weighs 558 pounds.

An complete iron (block and heads) 289 engine weighs 542 pounds.

Most people can't believe the big blocks of today are only 16 pounds heavier than the small blocks they raced with in the 60's.


David

David - Your quoted engine weights sound a bit high. All the components for the original aluminum engine with the hefty 58mm weber setup and dry sump pump weigh in at right about 450 lb, w/o bellhousing, w/o clutch, with flywheel and w/o alternator. Some small block engine weights quoted on the internet are around 460 lb. Shelby American knew what they were doing when they were developing the big block car. We need some accurate weight info on the 289, preferably with webers (comparable race setups). My 427 crank weights more like 65 lb. Even if someone has just individual 289 component weights, like block, head, crank, etc. that would help......

[rphubbard]

rsimoes,

Yes the GT engine is an aluminum block with a blower. But the Prototype engine was an iron block. Then when Ford gave the go ahead then a new block was designed for the project. Just read the SAE paper that was posted earlier. The GT engine was basically designed from scratch for the application.

MRMAX,
I had nothing to do with the the Spray Bore Technology while I was at Roush. The group I was in at Roush only worked on the 03 Cobra, Lightning and GT projects and some other powertrains. I no longer work on these small engines, I steped up to some real high horsepower engines (50,000+ Horsepower). But I do know about the technology and know that it has been used successfully for a long time. I think the argument between sleeves and coatings is as big as the BB vs SB arguments.

Regards,

[mrmax]

Thanks Ryan for info. my skepticism is with nikisil not blocks being stressed members or ribbing. motors have been stressed members in race cars for many years. If there is such considerable upside to this process why aren't any major manufacturers putting this to use? Things being what they are with mpg, weight, performance, and emissions. Thermal advantages and friction reduction also. Big difference in bolting in some new jugs or pulling a motorcycle motor rather than pulling your cobra or whatever motor and replacing or recoating if possible. Alot of considerations other than who can save some pounds. I still wonder about long stroke motors and associated rod angles effects on coating wear over the long term. If that is a problem what are your options for remedy?

[Excaliber]

With reduction in weight and the increasing demand for better mpg as it concerns the 'Big 3', I wouldn't be surprised to see the engine become a 'stressed member' of the frame at some point down the road.

But they also have to meet crash standards and that could be a can of worms on a production car.

VERY VERY few of us will ever see 100K miles on our replica, fewer still will be looking to make 1500 horse power (like ONE or TWO?). While it's a worthy goal, it's simply not reality in a marketing sense. How many Shelby alloy V8's are there that are making a 1500 horse power? I've heard of ONE, it makes for good press, cool to contemplate, but I'll pass thank you.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Hi,
Just a reallity check.
A fellow racer ran a turbocharged 347 cu in 5 liter mustang for 2 years in the 8 second bracket,probably making 1100 HP.
This STOCK BLOCK five liter made many,many passes before it split the block wide open.
The POINT is stock blocks are way tuffer than you can ever imagine.
Perry.
ps- he runs a stock motorsports 4 cap 351 block,out to 400 cubes with yates heads on alcohol and 28 lbs boost. Now it's high 6 seconds at 210 mph, oh yeah, this is a STREET LEGAL mustang

[David Kirkham]

Gents,

Here is the moment we have all been waiting for!

I just called Keith Craft and convinced him to get out his scales. I just received the following weights a few minutes ago. Many, many thanks to Keith Craft for taking time out of his day to do this for all of us! I know it was a pain and I thank him very much. (Love his motors too, by the way!)

ALL BLOCKS WERE MEASURED WITH THE MAIN CAPS ON.

Measured 23 February 2007 on Keith Craft's digital scales for setting up his race cars.

427 Original, Ford top oiler 204 pounds

428 Original Ford 183 pounds

427 Shelby, aluminum 133 pounds

427 Pond, iron 236 pounds

427 Pond, aluminum 119 pounds

427 Genesis, iron 258 pounds


Weighed by Kirkham on our digital scales.

351 Dart, aluminum 100.8 pounds (10 January 2007)

Complete motor weights coming up. I will take photos of the motors on the scales.

David

[quickjack]

mrmax,
Nikasil is used by Porsche, Mercedes and BMW, NASCAR teams as well as OE aircraft applications. (Jack Roush used it in his P-51 Merlin).
It is very hard and long-wearing. Domestic manufacturers are most likely put off by the cost, about $1000 for a V-8 on a one at a time basis - so even if you were doing thousands of them it's still costly compared to sleeves.

[quickjack]

David,
I have a few to add to your list which we weighed here recently.

Genesis 427 Aluminum 111 lbs.
Shelby 427 Alum w/ Nikasil 121 lbs.
Dart 351 w/ Nikasil 86 lbs.

[mrmax]

If cost is the major factor then maybe $5000 is optimistic?

[quickjack]

Also an original Ford 427 side oiler 206 pounds

[David Kirkham]

Jack,

Thanks for the adding to the list!

When I saw your Dart picture, I had to laugh. Great minds think alike! Actually, I think I was just thankful I wasn't too far out in left field with my ideas!

Where did you get a Shelby block with Nikasil?

David

[quickjack]

One of the guys here is building it for a friend. They went through quite a few hoops with Shelby to get it machined they wanted!

[David Kirkham]

What did you use for a sleeve material? How did you get that baby to work? Sounds really cool.

I understand the coolest thing on the planet is MMC (metal matrix composites) for blocks. Banned in racing for cost, however. Incredible stiffness, incredible strength--so it is very, very light. It is almost impossible to machine, however. You have to use diamond tools at $300/insert!

David

[quickjack]

If you are referring to the billet block, we use Darton sleeves.
The MMC is pretty heady stuff. Perfect Bore in the UK makes some ultra-thin coated sleeves that are pretty trick, but again - expensive.

[David Kirkham]

I was wondering about the sleeve material that you used in the Shelby block so that you could have a light weight Nikasil block.

So, is perfect bore making MMC sleeves and then coating them?!!!!! That sounds way, way cool if they are.

David

ps. send me your email list. Also, did you see our latest website addition with all the parts and numbers? You will find a lot of info there. NO MORE SEARCHING for part numbers. We will keep adding to the list and updating it as time goes on. I finally have a full time guy on the website.

http://kirkhammotorsports.com/faq/technical.html

[quickjack]

The Shelby block was machined for Nikasil bores without any sleeves. It works really well with cast blocks.

I sent the list yesterday, I'll look at your site too.

Gotta run, I'll talk to you later.

[Sizzler]

Originally Posted by quickjack

David,
I have a few to add to your list which we weighed here recently.
Dart 351 w/ Nikasil 86 lbs.

Oh Oh. 351 with Nikasil in at 86, vs the 81?,82? for this new block?

When will you have an accurate weight on this new block, with the caps?

How can you be planning on testing this block next week if you don't have the mockup and/or the actual bedplate to test it with?

How does the bedplate attach to the block itself? At the "pan rails" or just the caps with dowels?

Would really like to see this bedplate.

Someone above was right, this "nikasil vs sleeve" thing is fast turning into SB vs BB. Whatever, that should be up to the person ponying up the price.

When's the billet titanium block coming out now that the CNC routine is all programmed? If we provide our own billet, how much for the machine time and code rental?

[David Kirkham]

Sizzler,

Good questions!

We do have an accurate weight on the block--with girdle--already, 79 pounds. We know the weight because our CAD software calculates volumes and weights for us. It is EXTREMELY accurate. Now, we did go in an add a few fillets and radii, so we may be off by a pound or two. I am always amazed by the latest CAD/CAM software. I am amazed by the price too.

Once the code is done (we are in the final touches as you can see the wooden block) then it is no big deal to machine aluminum. We are hoping to have the aluminum block next week. (But we do keep changing little things here and there thanks to Dralle, Mike Lefevers, and others). Better to fix them in wood than aluminum. So if everything blows up it make take an extra week. Who knows--when you jump off a cliff you never know where you will land.

The girdle attaches at the main caps. Not on the pan rails.

As for titanium, Ferrari tried it in F1 and they couldn't make it work. Titanium is a strange alloy. It has a very low coefficient of thermal conductivity and it galls easily. In theory you should be able to make an exceptionally light block, but practice doesn't bear that out...so far.

Incidentally, a billet titanium block would cost about $25,000--for the material alone!

David

[Power Surge]

David, what is your rear main seal design for this block? I definitely think you should go with the once piece with the bolt on plate, like the mod motors have.

[David Kirkham]

Sal,

Currently we are using the original rear main seal design. I don't want people to have to have a special crank if another seal design requires it. We want to keep everything stock.

But, if that bolt on seal design (I am not familiar with it) will work on a standard FE then I am ALL for any improvements! Let me know if you have any ideas. I am all ears and it is much easier to change in wood than it is in aluminum!

Thanks for all of the discussion and ideas!

David