WHY do you worry about Socialism?

[Excaliber]

Serious question. Just trying to cut through the constant stream of hyperbole around here to get some actual realistic facts.

The latest BS hyperbole email cirulation AND CC posts concern Argentina. It's a stretch to compare the two countries, but it makes terrific "paranoid headlines" and feeds the needs of conservatives.

Then there are the comparisons to former administrations and great country men of yester year. FDR, Truman, Eisernhower, G.W. (that would be WASHINGTON not that other guy ). It's nostalgic to look back, but it's not like life was "that good" in the "good old days". Soup lines come to mind, murders over Union issues, stock market collapse, race riots, war's. Yeah, things were great in the "old days".

So what REALLY is feeding this conservative paranoia that the USA is headed toward socialism? Is it health care? Is it bailing out Wall Street? Is bailing out the Auto makers? Is it "Cap and Trade", Global warming, WHAT? OR is much of it just kicking the dog because the Republicans lost?

I still have faith in this country that all these various issues are going to be worked out within our "checks and balances" system.

I'm not saying everything is going to be fine, but give me a break. You'd think the country is about to be over run by some foreign power that will enslave us all. You know, it just aint that bad...

[Cobrabill]

[fastd]

I am not sure of your point about socialism...

Let me ask you a question that I put to very seriously: Is socialism and/or communism "bad"?

[Excaliber]

Is facism bad? Fascism and capitalism are inseparable. As many consume themselves worrying about socialism, I worry about the country headed to facism!

My point is, as apparently I didn't clairify it: What specifically has the Government done that would lead one to believe we are headed down the road to "Socialism"?

No "ism" in and of itself is good or bad, it's all about how the "ism" is applied.

[fastd]

Fascism? Where did that come from? I thought you were asking about socialism and why people are worried about it...

I don't think you will find a proper answer to your initial question, as clarified in the your last post, unless you are willing to explore and/or explain:
1. What socialism, communism is; and
2. Whether the concepts of socialism/communism/"state"ism are consistent will our Constitution and our Republic;

If you really want to know the answer to your question, I think you may be making more complicated than is has to be.

[tcrist]

Cute mind game Ernie. Won't work though. At least not on my keyboard.

[Excaliber]

Cobrabill's funny pic is more applicable than ever!

That pic illustrates perfectly the problem. Lot's of talk about "sliding into socialism", what SPECIFICALLY leads one to that conclusion? Indeed, perhaps a definition of "socialism" is in order! Cobrabill (put the hose down), perhaps you would like to clairify just what socialism is? We hear that term a LOT here on CC, surely somebody could define it for us?

Proto (comes before) facism, one man's definition:
An obsession with an outsider element that is perceived to be "destroying" the integrity or moral fabric of the nation and robbing it of its destiny. One could make a case that our founding father's were facist. Land owners, business owners controlled the Government. Anybody else was dealt with quite harshly and had no political voice. Ah, the good old days!

[Excaliber]

tcrist, can't quite put your finger on it either? Your not alone. Let's try another approach. Just what "platform" do these Tea Party people stand on? It's all to "general" to really get a handle on...

[fastd]

This is your thread; it is your contention that people are unduly worried about sliding into socialism, yet you don't even want to try to define it???

[RAZOR]

Yeah thats right everyone was a victim except the greedy white guys.

[Excaliber]

The term "socialism" is used again and again around here! It's a simple question. WHAT does it mean? It's my thread asking the question!

Once we have a definition, which as I suspected is quite confusing to the conservative mind, WHY do you believe the country is headed that way?

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

The term "socialism" is used again and again around here! It's a simple question. WHAT does it mean? It's my thread asking the question!

Once we have a definition, which as I suspected is quite confusing to the conservative mind, WHY do you believe the country is headed that way?

First of all you know exactly what it means, as do the rest of us. But if you need a definition: Its an economic system in which the central government is substantially in control of goods and services rather than by private enterprise.

Also it is in Marxist Theory the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism.

Your statement "no ism is good or bad, its all how the "ism" is applied" is beyond comprehension.Tell me where in history has communism been practiced that you could call it a good.

[Excaliber]

Socialism: "Its an economic system in which the central government is substantially in control of goods and services rather than by private enterprise."

OK we have a definition. We should limit the number of "ism's" to be discussed as to many at one time may be "beyond your comprehension". Social Security? Socialism? Medicare? Perhaps the given socialism definition here is to narrow? Perhaps socialism is neither good nor bad but is dependant on how it's applied?

What specific "substantial control" of "goods and services" point to a slide into socialism for the USA?

Or is it more of a feeling that some element is perceived to be "destroying" the integrity or moral fabric of the nation? Without specific examples one might conclude a slide toward facism is more likely than a slide toward socialism!

[Ralphy]

Socialists come to suck on the tit of Capitalism until it bleeds, the whole time pointing fingers. Then we all end up living in a third world environment. Ex, go search Democrat Socialism or Democrat Fascism and be enlightened.

Finger pointing is a two way street lets not forget the Dems during the Bush era.

Do you support our President handing out billions to third world dictators that we have always opposed? All for global warming, because that is what is being proposed.

I think most people are fed up with both sides. Politicians playing politics instead of just doing what is right.

Chew on this, if Health Care passes do you honestly think the rich will pay for it? The next party or the next will only change the numbers on who pays what and the political games will go on. I'm done supporting bottom feeders!

[Gunner]

Excaliber, 10/10 and applause for trying. Probably a waste of time though; when reactionaries seize on a term as its own argument they can neither explain it nor want it explained. Whatever term is in current use, it's just a code phrase for "different and I don't like it."

[Ralphy]

Ah, the good old days. When Southern California used to be the place to move. Inner city streets were safe to walk at night. We didn't lock or cars, we even left the keys in the ignition. We left the front door open on warm summer nights. When we turned the news on we didn't hear about 3 different murders a rape and a child molester and our dysfunctional public schools!

[Excaliber]

Good points Ralphy, now we may be getting to some core issues. Let me repeat, not all "ism's" are good or bad, it depends on how they are put into action. We have certain prejudices that make it difficult to discuss things like "socialism", "facism", "nationalism" because the very term(s) immediately leaves a bad taste in our mouth. And yet, America has always had plenty of examples of both socialism and nationalism. Captialism itself HAS to be regulated or it will become "evil".

Definitions for many of these terms are illusive at best, often with no clear or concise agreement.

Socialists come to suck on the tit of Capitalism until it bleeds.

An excellent example that demonstrates ANYTHING related to socialism is "bad". That is simply not the case.

"Billions to dictators" (Cap and Trade?).
I believe we have sufficient checks and balances to prevent any President from "handing out billions of dollars to Governments we oppose". By that I assume you mean to bring up the issue of "cap and trade"? A flawed program, but I wouldn't dismiss the concept outright. Unless you want China to go completely unchecked with their pollution output, for instance. That part about "billions to dictators" is certainly worrisome though! Again, I believe we have sufficient checks and balances to reach a reasonable conclusion on the matter, for the good of the country and the world.

Health Care reform:
It's been on the agenda for decades! Both parties, all parties, agree we need to do "something". Were still working on it, no way it's going to keep everyone happy. The way it is currently written does NOT favor socialism, it favors CAPITALISM! The insurance folks are going to get millions of new subscribers (ka ching). Those new subscribers will now have access to drugs they could not afford before! The drug companies are thrilled (ka ching). The profits are going to be spectacular! Socialism? Hardly! Capitalism at it's finest.

When I sold my house in Hawaii I had a hard time finding the house keys. I hadn't locked the house in years. THOSE good old days were, uh, last month for me.

[Ralphy]

So you think checks and balances fix all? So we have no one milking welfare? We have no one abusing food stamps?

"Health Care reform:
It's been on the agenda for decades! Both parties, all parties, agree we need to do "something". Were still working on it, no way it's going to keep everyone happy. The way it is currently written does NOT favor socialism, it favors CAPITALISM! The insurance folks are going to get millions of new subscribers (ka ching). Those new subscribers will now have access to drugs they could not afford before! The drug companies are thrilled (ka ching). The profits are going to be spectacular! Socialism? Hardly! Capitalism at it's finest."

You call this Capitalism? What employers that do fall in line will be paid by you and me through higher costs of products and services. Then we already talked about all the new jobs that will be created. Part time jobs that is!

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by Ralphy

Ah, the good old days. When Southern California used to be the place to move. Inner city streets were safe to walk at night. We didn't lock or cars, we even left the keys in the ignition. We left the front door open on warm summer nights. When we turned the news on we didn't hear about 3 different murders a rape and a child molester and our dysfunctional public schools!

And Andy Hardy walked home to greet Robert Young and Donna Reed cheerfully before running upstairs to get buckled down on his application to good old State U.

[Excaliber]

Gasp! You mean some folks are abusing welfare and food stamps? How about Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid? Should we end all these programs immediately because of this abuse of the system? Because were tired of supporting these "bottom feeders"? Should we cut them all off right now? Let them starve then, including any homeless Veterans! Let them freeze in their house during this blizzard, no more heat subsidies for you bottom feeders. No more homeless shelters, they made their bed, let them lay in their own filth.

I don't know man, that sounds a little bit "facist" to me. Maybe our concern about socialism is a bit skewed here...

Or maybe, just maybe, some of these programs and some future programs actually have merit and are worth considering?