WHY do you worry about Socialism?

[Ronbo]

The labels are pointless...

Why keep score at a football game, who cares who wins?

Communism and Socialism just breed the same useless, going nowhere, "existing" lives. No motive for self-improvement, innovation is replaced with complacency. The thought that it's somehow "primitive" to seek reward for your efforts is stupid. It's the nature of this planet that the strong survive, yet the "enlightened" wish to dismiss this as not applying to the human race. After all we're social animals, right? Wrong, it just means we kill in groups.

The end result of the welfare "experiment" is gettos that span entire cities (that are financially collapsing, BTW), crime at unheard of levels, poverty class the largest it's ever been. All this with the middle and especially the upper class paying even higher percentages of the taxes. The only difference between slavery on a plantation and slavery in the getto is the view. (not to mention something actually got done on the plantation)

Free enterprise means your free to either fail or not, but most importantly your free. I see the government controlling any portion of my life against my will as shackels and any true American will oppose this.

Some people are pussies and can't handle free will.

[Excaliber]

There is no question we can agree on socialism not being a good form of Government. The question(s) are: When do we cross the line from needed social programs to socialism?

We are no where near that happening...

[RAZOR]

Some random thoughts on socialism:

LBJ started the war on poverty over 40 years ago, the Feds have spent billions of dollars, and guess what...POVERTY won.

Socialism guarantees one thing Equal Poverty for all.

Ben Franklin said in 1766"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it, in my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And on the contrary, the less was done for them,the more they did for themselves,and became the richer."

Gunner, I take it from your posts that you are a bit surprised that a conservative has enough intelligence to spell socialism. Very elitist view of the stupid people that dare to have a different opinion.

Excaliber, the overall tone of your argument is the basic Liberal mindset, people are not smart enough to handle their own life, 401k for example, so we need the government to do it for us. You tell fstd he is being sensational, why don't you take a couple of the accusations he made and tell us where he is wrong.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Gasp! You mean some folks are abusing welfare and food stamps? How about Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid? Should we end all these programs immediately because of this abuse of the system? Because were tired of supporting these "bottom feeders"? Should we cut them all off right now? Let them starve then, including any homeless Veterans! Let them freeze in their house during this blizzard, no more heat subsidies for you bottom feeders. No more homeless shelters, they made their bed, let them lay in their own filth.

* * *

Yes...except for the Vets. They should want for nuthin.

[SPF2245]

Ex, to answer your question regarding what Obama has done (or should I say trying to do) to make this a socialist state:
1) Raise Taxes
2) Increase Spending/Deficit
3) Create a nationalized health care system (oh, I mean "Exchange")
4) Pressure banks to make risky loans (since when does he have a degree in business?)
5) Change federal rules so small businesses owned by people with disabilities can get preferential treatment for federal contracts (nice, makes you feel all warm and fuzzy...until someone has to flip the extra cost for that feeling, eh??)
6)Double U.S. spending on foreign aid to $50 Billion a year by 2012 (WHAT???)
7)Run a CEO out of a job (ie GM)

There are others, but I do want to say he has done or said he'll try and put more towards Vets and education...both are well worth the money to invest in. As for the rest, we all have our opinions. I just love watching him try and run big business with his czars and such, it's like a horror film when you know the ending isn't going to be pretty.

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

There is no question we can agree on socialism not being a good form of Government. The question(s) are: When do we cross the line from needed social programs to socialism?

We are no where near that happening...

Then the illusion has worked. Slip it in slowly over time, that way the sheep get used to it, even come to expect it.

Needed social programs are called charities, we've had them all along...

[Excaliber]

Razor, uh, it's pretty clear we all agree socialism isn't a good game plan. You can now shut down the tape recorded message. The overall "tone of my argument" is that for the most part conservatives offer very little to support a reasonable and logical base argument. It is simply a mantra of socialism is bad (duh), were going down the tubes (no, were not).

fastd's comments are all over the map and consist primarily of hyperbole (classic conservative comments). SPF2245 run's a close second. Jamo is the resident colorful commentator so he gets a pass.

Let's look at one of fastd "9 points" as a classic conservative example of hyperbole:

Government did take over some banks, auto companies, and insurance companies.

Short answer is: No, they didn't, but don't let facts get in the way of a good argument. TARP was/is/remains bi-partisan. It really was BUSH who started it (and then scrambled to CYA via T.A.R.P.)! It was the combined opinions of virtually ALL the economist's consulted that a BAIL OUT of the banks, auto industry, insurance companies and more were absolutely required to stop the unprecedented collapse of the economy. A "loan", with oversight, is far removed from a "take over" by Government and the installation of a socialist state. Pay back the loan, go about your business. THAT is classic capitalism at work!

[tcrist]

Guys,
Like I said on page 1, "cute mind game". Ernie is gathering you all in and will close the gate on you. He is doing it on this thread just like the government has been doing it for years.
Read the "cut and paste" below. That is what the government has been doing to us for years. All sides have been doing it all along and giving you the warm and fuzzies right with it.

Cut and paist,
There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt. The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country’s government and install a new communist government. In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question.


He asked, ‘ Do you know how to catch wild pigs?’ The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke. ‘You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how To forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms- just a little at a time.

One should always remember ‘There is no such thing as a free Lunch! Also, a politician will never provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Enough said,

[Jamo]

Jamo is the resident colorful commentator so he gets a pass.

Don't presume I was being entirely funny.

You seem too dismissive of what folks are telling you from the conservative side of the aisle. You seem to presume that social programs run by the government are needed.

As Ronbo noted..."charities" have always done their part...more so before FDR and his fellow travelers started mucking it up with government-forced entitlement programs. Whether faith-based or leftovers from the Knights Templer, given the freedom to do so without tax and regulatory requirements, stuff can get done just fine. You wouldn't believe the crap non-profits have to go through these days, and grant-applications have forged a whole new industry, despite the fact that local groups know better where the needs are than morons back in HUD offices.

Case in point...ten or so years ago under the Clinton Administration, the California orange industry suffered a freeze that immediately put thousands of farmworkers out of work. I'm not talking about illegals or folks who rely on welfare...I'm talking about people with mortgages, credit balances at Sears and kids in school. An organization I was on the board of...a non-profit credit counseling service (not the bullsh!t for-profit companies you see on late-night TV ads) was in there within a day to help folks deal with their creditors. The United Farm Workers (I have no problem tipping my hat to one of my enemies for what they were able to do) got Safeway to deliver food and household goods in semis within 2-3 days. Farmers brought in food that was already designated for market. Local church groups were right there beside them. It wasn't until a week later that anyone from the State (Gray Davis admin.) or federal governments even turned up, and then it was to "assess the situation." Same damn thing happened this last summer when farmers couldn't even plant crops due to lack of water deliveries...Obama sent Salazar to tell us he was turning on the pumps...after the season was over. Farmworkers went out and did what they could with a helping hand and found whatever work they could. Few foreclosures or bankruptcies happened. They don't rely on the teat.

Then we have the morons down in New Orleans...same thing, government got in the way or didn't show...and folks who forgot how to do things for themselves start b!tching at everyone else. Remember all of the buses that just sat there because the mayor didn't think people needed to be evacuated, and then the pictures of the thousands sitting around the Superbowl? Once the water went down, they went around stealing each other's TVs. And liberals howled at Bush instead of dumping that dumb son-of-a-b!tch as mayor. Then we have one of the loudest liberals (jefferson) screaming while he cooled a wad of cash in his freezer.

Bullsh!t...that's what entitlement programs do. Government puts the entitlement drug out through its teats, and we end up with lazy addicts.

Liberals/socialists/communists...whatever label you choose...simply need to get the hell out of the way and let folks get back to working their own problems out.

[fastd]

Ex,

My post this morning were all facts, not sensationalism as you suggested. If you are unable identify any of those points as factual then there is really no point in continuing this conversation. If you were interested in understanding the answer to your question, you would as least make some effort to understand the pointed listed - or at least take one and expose it; but you can't. To dismiss them as sensationalism really exposes your desire not to really understand or move the debate forward. Good day and I'll catch you on the next one.

[sunman]

FACTS

1.4 TRILLION dollars a year for the military, over 50% of taxes collected. No other nation spends over 10% China included. Google "The Federal Pie Chart" to see where the numbers come from. The OMB is the governments numbers. They budget nuke bombs under the Dept of Energy.

400 of the 535 in Washington use the Office of the Attending Physician for health care at a cost to them of about $50 per month. Thats government run health care, good for life.

Our senators and congressman came together and found time to vote themselves raises.

Divide and conquer is a proven tactic as old as the hills. The Republican/Democrat parties use it very well, as you can see from reading what is posted here.

Only about 1/3 of the people vote.

WE ARE ALL AMERICANS FIRST. WE HAVE THE POWER OF THE VOTE. USE IT OR LOSE IT.

[Excaliber]

Jamo says,

You seem to presume that social programs run by the government are needed.

Good points, I concur, Federal programs are a mess for the most part. BUT, yes, we do need them and that doesn't make us a socialistic country.

Charities do good work, especially in a disaster type of situation. For the most part when the disaster is over, they go home. The Vet's are still homeless. Some families will still be hungry. We need action on a Federal level to meet the minimum standards for those who are just trying to survive on a day to day basis. As screwed up as Social Security is, it's better than no program at all. Same for Medicare, Medical, food stamps, as distasteful as they are, they meet serious ongoing need's. Not all people on these programs are "bottom feeders" sucking at the public teat.

I hear the anger, the frustration, the fear, even the hyperbole that comes from the conservative side of the aisle. I'd like to use a .50 caliber with a scope to nail the issues, not a shot gun.

Scraping these programs simply is not going to happen. With this or any future administration. No matter how many people vote. It's just unrealistic to propose such an idea. What we CAN do is modify them! Like require those on certain Welfare programs to sign up and actively seek work! Not all can work, some are going to be on Welfare their entire lives, they can't be helped. Thankfully, their are soup kitchens for some, charities for others and Federal aid available.

fastd, My rebuttal to your point on Gov "taking over" industry stands stands as posted. There was no "take over", there was a "bail out", a loan, bi-partisan at that. We are not a third world country, run by a dicator looking to haul us all into a socialistic form of Government. As Jamo noted, I dismiss such rhetoric! We are free to disagree with how Government acts during an economic crisis. Some say no bail out for GM, OK, I think it was the right call. I'll go with the National economist's on this one. Did they get it right? The jury is out, but the results appear to be positive.

sunman, were in TWO wars, have been for years. If you want to lower the military budget the solution is simple enough. Pull out, or raise taxes to fund the war. Your call...

[jolsen42]

Originally Posted by sunman

FACTS

2.2 TRILLION dollars a year for the military, over 50% of taxes collected. No other nation spends over 10% China included.


WE ARE ALL AMERICANS FIRST. WE HAVE THE POWER OF THE VOTE. USE IT OR LOSE IT.

Where pray tell did you come up with that figure? According to the OMB the initial 2009 FY budget was 515 Billion and with additions was 738 Billion. The budget for FY 2010 is 663 Billion. Small price for our saftey. John O

[Jamo]

Ernie, let me put it this way...you're wrong.

[Excaliber]

Eh eh, I can live with that.

[RAZOR]

[quote=Excaliber;1011148]Razor, uh, it's pretty clear we all agree socialism isn't a good game plan. You can now shut down the tape recorded message. The overall "tone of my argument" is that for the most part conservatives offer very little to support a reasonable and logical base argument. It is simply a mantra of socialism is bad (duh), were going down the tubes (no, were not).

Pretty clear? First you say no "ism" is good or bad, now you come up with that socialism isn't good, like thats been your position all along. Yes thats clear as mud.Its the old I voted for it before I voted against it routine.

[fastd]

Ex,

This is what I wrote:

3. Government did take over some banks, auto companies, and insurance companies.

I didn't say that the Government took over all industries; the government owns GM fired the former CEO, replaced another CEO, it is are telling some banks how to run their business, who they can hire, how much executives can earn, they are calling the shots at AIG...

[Excaliber]

Socialism, difficult to acurrately define. But as we see the term used here on CC it certainly implies a bad form of Government. I think we can all agree on that definition for the sake of THIS discussion.

When you become the major stock holder/investor in a company you get to call the shots. Like GM, the banks or who ever. I don't have a problem with the way the Gov is handling the bailout, specifically for GM, or the banks. I DO reserve judgment on the overall stimulus monies as there are still a lot of dollars left to spend. Perhaps we should STOP, NOW? Perhaps, the economy is well on it's way to recovery all ready and the rest of the TARP money should be halted? I don't know...

I recently sold my house, bought another one, I am totally up to speed on the nightmare it is to get a loan right now. Obama needs to kick some banking azz!! I'm not talking about sub prime folks here. Solid, long employed, good wage earning folks are being put through a meat grinder to get a loan for a house. If this is anything like a small business has to go through to get a loan right now, what a nightmare!

Once these corp's pay off the loan they can hire whatever CEO and pay whatever bonus' they want. As long as they are using MY tax dollars it better come with strings attached.

...Ernie wanders off and sprinkles a little more corn around the gate...

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Serious question. Just trying to cut through the constant stream of hyperbole around here to get some actual realistic facts.

The latest BS hyperbole email cirulation AND CC posts concern Argentina. It's a stretch to compare the two countries, but it makes terrific "paranoid headlines" and feeds the needs of conservatives.

Then there are the comparisons to former administrations and great country men of yester year. FDR, Truman, Eisernhower, G.W. (that would be WASHINGTON not that other guy ). It's nostalgic to look back, but it's not like life was "that good" in the "good old days". Soup lines come to mind, murders over Union issues, stock market collapse, race riots, war's. Yeah, things were great in the "old days".

So what REALLY is feeding this conservative paranoia that the USA is headed toward socialism? Is it health care? Is it bailing out Wall Street? Is bailing out the Auto makers? Is it "Cap and Trade", Global warming, WHAT? OR is much of it just kicking the dog because the Republicans lost?

I still have faith in this country that all these various issues are going to be worked out within our "checks and balances" system.

I'm not saying everything is going to be fine, but give me a break. You'd think the country is about to be over run by some foreign power that will enslave us all. You know, it just aint that bad...

Liberalism.

If history doesn't suit your ideals,twist it and ridicule it until it does suit your purpose.

Slowly, slowly, but finally, the country is learning that liberalism is the worst "ism" of all!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Federal programs are a mess for the most part. BUT, yes, we do need them
...

That's the fundamental flaw in your logic, if you can call it that.