May Be Pulled

[Ron61]

This may be pulled off the net so if you want to llisten to it do so soon.

http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplay....swf?aid=11991

Ron

[Fordzilla]

Great Post Ron!! This General hits it right on the head. Spot on!

[SPF2245]

It's too bad that a man with his experience is removed from service for saying the truth. I guess it's easier to ignore his message and have a few more funerals then confront the problem head on.

[Tommy]

I suppose Gen. Boykin does find it ironic that the Army forced him to retire for expressing his fundamentalist Christian views in public speeches, while allowing an extremist Muslim to continue on in the service. His superiors did the right thing while Hassan's superiors didn't.

I have no doubt that Hassan's religion played some part in the bad decisions made by his superiors. But there are other factors at play here too. As a retired Air Force aviator I've studied aircraft accident reports for years. One of the most interesting involved a hotshot B-52 pilot who crashed his plane killing himself and several senior officers on board while practicing a low altitude flyby for an air show. The post accident investigation revealed the pilot, who was highly regarded for his flying skills, had a long history of ignoring instructions from supervisors and violating flying safety rules (e.g., flying too low). It had gotten so bad that another senior officer on base would not allow his people to fly as crew with him. The problem had been known and documented for several years, but none of the pilot's superiors had done anything more than talk with him. None of them wanted to take on the difficult job of formally charging him and removing him from flying status. After he flew the B-52 into the ground, his last two superiors were charged with and convicted of failure to do their duty.

[Excaliber]

Hasan's supervisors sanitized his performance appraisals in the years prior to the shootings, according to government documents obtained by The Associated Press that reveal concerns about him at almost every stage of his Army education.

Officers in charge of Hasan loaded praise into the alleged gunman's record despite knowing he was chronically late for work, saw few patients, disappeared when he was on call and confronted those around him with his Islamic views.

Some Congressmen are pissed at the Army for STILL trying to sanitize the investigation. The Army's concern is that they might be accused of "profiling". Man, we need a serious reality check here.

[Ron61]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Some Congressmen are pissed at the Army for STILL trying to sanitize the investigation. The Army's concern is that they might be accused of "profiling". Man, we need a serious reality check here.

And how. The devil with them not liking profiling. This guy could have and should have been stopped but each of his superiors were afraid if they said anything it would cost them a future promotion. But what isn't said on a proficiency report can also cost a promotion just as quick.

Ron

[Tommy]

Here's another perspective on Hassan and his superiors. During my 20 years in the Air Force, there were times when the service was shrinking and the Air Force did whatever it could to force/coerce/encourage un-needed people to leave. At other times, they would bend over backwards to keep people with bonus payments, perks and lowered standard of performance. From what I've read, the Army has taken a lot of heat over the high suicide rate and is desperate for qualified psychiatrists and counsellors. Sometimes, when a service gets desperate for people with specific skills, it overlooks shortcomings that only appear obvious after the harm has been done. .... I'm not trying to condone the mistakes made by Hassan's superiors. I'm just trying to say this isn't the first time lives have been lost because a service lowered its quality standards to meet a quantity requirement.

[Ron61]

Tommy,

It isn't the first time they have transferred an undesirable with good recommendation either because they just want to get rid of them. No matter their job or rank, this was a screwed up deal. If they had just left certain things out of his efficiency report, that would have caused some of the other officers that he was going to serve under to look a little closer.

Ron

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Tommy,

It isn't the first time they have transferred an undesirable with good recommendation either because they just want to get rid of them. No matter their job or rank, this was a screwed up deal. If they had just left certain things out of his efficiency report, that would have caused some of the other officers that he was going to serve under to look a little closer.

Ron

Agreed. I had one of those come into a squadron I commanded. He was a raging alcoholic with only eight months left to retirement. His previous unit could not have gotten rid of him with an accurate assessment so they lied and sent him on to me. After several unsuccessful efforts to get him dried out enough to reach retirement, I initiated action to have him involuntarily separated only three months shy of retirement. A commander above me with a softer heart over ruled me and took him off my hands for the last three months.

[Ron61]

Tommy,

You got a great break there. I was always a little suspicious of any person that has been transferred several times and has a glowing efficiency report, so I looked more for what they never said than what they said. And the same thing happens in big companies. I knew of one person that was transferred 4 times with glowing reports on what a great PERSON he was, nothing about his ability. Finally they made him a supervisor and put him off in some do nothing job until he could retire.

Ron

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Tommy,

You got a great break there. I was always a little suspicious of any person that has been transferred several times and has a glowing efficiency report, so I looked more for what they never said than what they said. And the same thing happens in big companies. I knew of one person that was transferred 4 times with glowing reports on what a great PERSON he was, nothing about his ability. Finally they made him a supervisor and put him off in some do nothing job until he could retire.

Ron

In the classic book, The Peter Principle, they called that move a lateral arabesque.

[Bill Bess]

This is the same problem we have in areas of life. People want the money, leadership and glory that goes along with rising to the top of your particular field , but fail to assert the proper, necessary action and followup to prevent these types of issues.
Most folks want to take the easy way out, push the problem through to somebody else, or just turn the other cheek.
We are too PC and afraid of speaking out to identify problems...no guts, lazy and afraid of being singled out ourselves. It appears our government and military are full of these folks that need to be singled out and removed.
Something really bad is happening.

[SPF2245]

Tommy, the problem with Gen. Boykin Commanders is the fact his statements were taken out of context, he never said anything that isn't true, but Muslims caused a stink and his superiors ran off and threw him under a bus. His comments about Osman Ali Atto which caused his initial issues, were correct but again it looked like he was attacking only Islam, not Atto's real values/religion.
His comments regarding Islam are also correct, but people just don't want to defend it, because they're afraid of the fall out. Islamic terrorists are our threat, they are being fought by Christians (among others) and it's only natural for either side to defend their actions under the cover of religion. How else do you serve on Delta and three major conflicts resulting in thousands of deaths and still sleep at night?

[Tommy]

SPF2445,

If you're suggesting that military officers should be allowed to say things that inflame a portion of American society and our enemies provided they believe that what they are saying is true, then I disagree. Historically and correctly, in my opinion, the military exists to protect civil society, not participate in the public debate. ... Using a sports metaphor, during the week before the big game the coach doesn't want one of his players to say something to the media that will mostly be used to motivate the players on the other team.

[Ronbo]

I know I'll catch hell for saying this, but you should look at the screwed up enviroment that co-eding combat forces has created. If you get a chance, watch "Carrier" on PBS the next time it's on. Anyone from the "old" Navy will be shocked to see how our capital ships have been converted into floating collage frat houses.

I won't even get into the incompetance level I saw among the females when I was in. Of course now that Gays are OK I guess the guys can blow their way through school too.

The idiot Foriegn nationals in the back of the class (Mainly Saudis) was another joke, but at least that was someone else's problem...

[Joe Wicked]

What bothered me while I was in the Navy with the women is the different physical standards. A fire does not burn easier because a woman is fighting it, a bullet does not travel slower because it is heading towards a woman, a full equipment load does not weigh less because it is carried by a woman, so why do they not have the same physical requirements as a man. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT anti-woman in the military. I am anti double standard. The physical requirement should be the same, they are doing the same job.

At the same time I am not Anti-Gay in the military either. I am secure in my sexuality and what they do is their business, but if they wish to offer their life to defend this country let them. If they begin un-welcomed sexual advances it should be the same thing as any other sexual harassment case.

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

At the same time I am not Anti-Gay in the military either. I am secure in my sexuality and what they do is their business, but if they wish to offer their life to defend this country let them. If they begin un-welcomed sexual advances it should be the same thing as any other sexual harassment case.

Right, nothing like gettin' checked out in the shower, bunking down with 80 guys...

But as a hetrosexual I'm supposed to be OK with someone with abnormal sexual behaviour around me with the stripped down privacy that military service requires. The Homosexual is somehow not supposed to consider the effect their presence has on the hetrosexuals.

The military is about standards of conduct both personal and professional, this PC BS has no place in it.

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

What bothered me while I was in the Navy with the women is the different physical standards. A fire does not burn easier because a woman is fighting it, a bullet does not travel slower because it is heading towards a woman, a full equipment load does not weigh less because it is carried by a woman, so why do they not have the same physical requirements as a man. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT anti-woman in the military. I am anti double standard. The physical requirement should be the same, they are doing the same job.

I'm sympathetic to your point of view, but I'll take the other side of the debate just for balance. ... Do you suppose Army leaders decided how much equipment the ideal soldier has to carry and then went out and recruited people of the right size? No, they saw how much load the average soldier could carry and then sized the equipment load to that capability. When they decided to add women to the mix they had two choices. They could either lower the equiipment load to the new, lower average size soldier, or they could keep the average male requirement the same and introduce a lesser requirement for the, on average smaller, women. Of course we, as a society, could have decided not to let women in the military. But I rather like the idea of women paying the same price for freedom as the men. ... If there had been an all female Army that was allowing men for the first time, all the women would be complaining because the men take up too much room in the vehicles and, because they are bigger, men make easier targets. Change is hard.

[Ronbo]

The idea, however politically unpopular is a military in the best shape to win a war. (which we haven't lately) We've been offsetting the personel problem with technology but ground forces are far from obsolite. You've got to march troops in there to plant the flag.

We can ignore the fact that men are physically and mentally better suited to fighting than women all we want, but the idea that our armed forces are as good as ever is a lie. If we had to face an army like WWII Germany today we'd get our azzes handed to us.

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Right, nothing like gettin' checked out in the shower, bunking down with 80 guys...

But as a hetrosexual I'm supposed to be OK with someone with abnormal sexual behaviour around me with the stripped down privacy that military service requires. The Homosexual is somehow not supposed to consider the effect their presence has on the hetrosexuals.

The military is about standards of conduct both personal and professional, this PC BS has no place in it.

I will tell you right now that there are homosexuals in the Military, and people are fighting beside them without knowing. Your sexual preference should have no bearing on how you do your job, if it is, you are in violation and should be court marshaled. I served with one guy who no one ever knew was gay. I happened to see him on Military.com on the command website and he is now a she. Never knew it at the time, and he was good at what he did. There is a normal behavior that is acceptable in my opinion. I am not talking about the flaming homosexuals that will make everyone around them uncomfortable, that is unacceptable unwanted sexual advances that should be handled as sexual harasment. I am talking about the guys and girls that act like normal people, don't flaunt it, don't make it obvious that they are, and don't make everyone uncomfortable. I am definitely not PC, and I can quite often get myself into trouble by the words I use. I just feel that there are those who can do the job and it should not matter.