I guess it's a "Cultural" thing !!!

[CobraEd]

An eye-opener...question...what can we do...?



> In the 1700’s what is now Haiti was called the “Jewel of the Caribbean,”
and supplied about 40% of the world’s sugar.

> In 1791 the government of France passed legislation to phase out slavery
in its Caribbean colonies and grant the former Negro slaves citizenship.
Rather than becoming citizens, Haiti’s Negro population mass murdered all
whites and Mulattoes who could not flee the Island in time. In 1804 only full
blooded Negros remained and Haiti became the first Negro ruled nation.

The Haitian revolution dominated America’s debate over slavery. While
both the north and the south agreed that slavery should be ended,
southerners and a large percentage of northerners universally opposed
having a large population of freed slaves living in their midst.. The
Haitian “Revolution” was fresh in every one’s mind.

> Flash forward to 1915. The “Jewel of the Caribbean” is now a desolate
cesspool, that is exporting almost no sugar. The United States decides
> to “take up the white man’s burden” and send the US Marine Corps to
rebuild Haiti’s infrastructure and feed it’s starving population.

> The United States gave huge amounts of money to Haiti and over-saw the
building of 1,000 miles of road, telephone lines, modernized its port, and
> helped Haiti to start exporting sugar once again. The US also put an end
to the thousands of bandits along Haiti’s border with the Dominican Republic.
The US left in 1934 at the request of the then stabilized and ungrateful
> Haitian government.

> Haiti immediately sank straight back into total desolation strife. In 1973 the
> United State once again began playing a huge role in Haiti, giving the Island
huge sums of money in handouts each year.

> In 1994 the Clinton administration once again sent the US military to Haiti to
> rebuild the Island’s infrastructure. In 1995 the Peace Corps went to Haiti in
large numbers to train the Haitians in job skills.

The US government spent almost one billion dollars providing
> food and job training to the Haitians between 1995 and 1999.

> So...when Obama said that Haiti has our “full, unwavering, support,” he spoke
truth...they've already had it since 1915.



.

[Buzz]

I generally try to avoid posting on serious social/historical discussions related to race and culture. Mainly because the chasm that exists between the comfortable western perspective and the perspective of those who weren't in a position to write the history books is simply too wide to be breached in an emotionally charged and heavily polarized forum such as this.
As an example, just look at the idealized blue eyed, Anglo-Saxon image of Jesus Christ that has endured, beaming benevolently at us from books and pictures for so many centuries - despite the obvious reality that people of that time and place looked nothing like that at all.

Here's a slightly different perspective on Haiti, uncolored by colonialist political expediency. I have a feeling it will not be well recieved (ya think?) but here goes anyway...

Slavery and exploitation were still very much alive and well in Haiti when Toussaint L'Ouverture (look him up) led the rebellion of Haitian independence in 1797.

The following is an exerpt from the writings of an acknowledged expert on Caribbean history.

The Haitians fought for their freedom and won, as did the Americans fifty years earlier. The Americans declared their independence and crafted an extraordinary constitution that set out a clear message about the value of humanity and the right to freedom, justice, and liberty.

In the midst of this brilliant discourse, they chose to retain slavery as the basis of the new nation state. The founding fathers therefore could not see beyond race, as the free state was built on a slavery foundation.

The water was poisoned in the well; the Americans went back to the battlefield a century later to resolve the fact that slavery and freedom could not comfortably co-exist in the same place.

The French, also, declared freedom, fraternity and equality as the new philosophies of their national transformation and gave the modern world a tremendous progressive boost by so doing.

They abolished slavery, but Napoleon Bonaparte could not imagine the republic without slavery and targeted the Haitians for a new, more intense regime of slavery. The British agreed, as did the Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese.

All were linked in communion over the 500 000 Blacks in Haiti, the most populous and prosperous Caribbean colony.

As the jewel of the Caribbean, they all wanted to get their hands on it. With a massive slave base, the English, French and Dutch salivated over owning it - and the people.

The people won a ten-year war, the bloodiest in modern history, and declared their independence. Every other country in the Americas was based on slavery.

Haiti was freedom, and proceeded to place in its 1805 Independence Constitution that any person of African descent who arrived on its shores would be declared free, and a citizen of the republic.

For the first time since slavery had commenced, Blacks were the subjects of mass freedom and citizenship in a nation.

The French refused to recognise Haiti's independence and declared it an illegal pariah state. The Americans, whom the Haitians looked to in solidarity as their mentor in independence, refused to recognise them, and offered solidarity instead to the French. The British, who were negotiating with the French to obtain the ownership title to Haiti, also moved in solidarity, as did every other nation-state the Western world.

Haiti was isolated at birth - ostracised and denied access to world trade, finance, and institutional development. It was the most vicious example of national strangulation recorded in modern history.

The Cubans, at least, have had Russia (and) China. The Haitians were alone from inception. The crumbling began.

Then came 1825; the moment of full truth. The republic is celebrating its 21st anniversary. There is national euphoria in the streets of Port-au-Prince.

The economy is bankrupt; the political leadership isolated. The cabinet took the decision that the state of affairs could not continue.

The country had to find a way to be inserted back into the world economy. The French government was invited to a summit.

Officials arrived and told the Haitian government that they were willing to recognise the country as a sovereign nation but it would have to pay compensation and reparation in exchange. The Haitians, with backs to the wall, agreed to pay the French.

The French government sent a team of accountants and actuaries into Haiti in order to place a value on all lands, all physical assets, the 500 000 citizens were who formerly enslaved, animals, and all other commercial properties and services.

The sums amounted to 150 million gold francs. Haiti was told to pay this reparation to France in return for national recognition.

The Haitian government agreed; payments began immediately. Members of the Cabinet were also valued because they had been enslaved people before independence.

Thus began the systematic destruction of the Republic of Haiti. The French government bled the nation and rendered it a failed state. It was a merciless exploitation that was designed and guaranteed to collapse the Haitian economy and society.

Haiti was forced to pay this sum until 1922 when the last installment was made. During the long 19th century, the payment to France amounted to up to 70 per cent of the country's foreign exchange earnings.

Jamaica today pays up to 70 per cent in order to service its international and domestic debt. Haiti was crushed by this debt payment. It descended into financial and social chaos.

The republic did not stand a chance. France was enriched and it took pleasure from the fact that having been defeated by Haitians on the battlefield, it had won on the field of finance. In the years when the coffee crops failed, or the sugar yield was down, the Haitian government borrowed on the French money market at double the going interest rate in order to repay the French government.

When the Americans invaded the country in the early 20th century, one of the reasons offered was to assist the French in collecting its reparations.

The collapse of the Haitian nation resides at the feet of France and America, especially. These two nations betrayed, failed, and destroyed the dream that was Haiti; crushed to dust in an effort to destroy the flower of freedom and the seed of justice.

Haiti did not fail. It was destroyed by two of the most powerful nations on earth, both of which had a primary interest in its current condition.

The sudden quake has come in the aftermath of summers of hate. In many ways the quake has been less destructive than the hate. Human life was snuffed out by the quake, while the hate has been a long and inhumane suffocation - a crime against humanity.

During the 2001 UN Conference on Race in Durban, South Africa, strong representation was made to the French government to repay the 150 million francs.

The value of this amount was estimated by financial actuaries as US$21 billion. This sum of capital could rebuild Haiti and place it in a position to re-engage the modern world. It was illegally extracted from the Haitian people and should be repaid.

It is stolen wealth. In so doing, France could discharge its moral obligation to the Haitian people.

Me again. Haiti's problems were also compounded by despotic leadership - a condition that festered because a broken, impoverished population with it's society and economy in a shambles was easy prey for the opportunistic and predatory a$$holes who jumped on the backs of their own people, already bent by exploitation, isolation and subjugation.

EDIT: You write with understandable horror about the rebellious slaves killing white people. From your perspective as a decent person you view this as a murderous rampage. Difficult as it may be - try to place yourself in the shoes of a black man in that era. You are viewed as livestock. You are subhuman and at best the nicer, kinder white people will treat you much as they would a horse. Any attempt by you to act like a human being would be met with harsh, torturing punishment, even death. To the nice smiling folks in their parlours, you are an animal to be bred, sold, traded, worked, beaten and killed as they see fit. When you finally take up arms to fight for your freedom, you know damn well that if the rebellion fails all of you will face torture and death. To everyone else those are nice, decent, god fearing white folks you are fighting against. To you - a desperate slave - they are the devil incarnate.

Damn right the Haitian rebellion was fresh in everyone's mind - there was a fear that if it was allowed to be a success story, black slaves in all the Americas would be emboldened and start to get the idea that they could stand up, fight back and actually win their freedom. Couldn't have that now, could we?

[CobraEd]

Someone sent this to me and I thought it provocative so I posted it. I did not write it. If true in its entirety, it is an interesting perspective though.

.

[zrayr]

Sad but true, Haiti has never recovered from the French debt. And not likely ever to be anything but the poorest country in the Western hemisphere. Countries without a middle class have a rough time making it.

Z. Ray

[CobraEd]

The sad thing is that the indiginous people who were there in Haiti before any of the new world people got there (White or Black) were exterminated and decimated by our diseases. They had an idillic life and a great culture. They were the Taino People. So sad !!!

http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/hai...n/tainover.htm


.

[Buzz]

I promise you in all sincerity if I watched people murder, enslave and brutalize myself and my family, their own lives would not be worth a plugged nickel, and I would slit their throats in their sleep if the opportunity arose. Does that fit your definition of "A Cultural Thing" ?

[02roush]

On a side note, I absolutely loved St. Lucia! Went ATVing the coast, and that airport landing strip is something else.

Dominica was my favorite though.

[Buzz]

I'm glad you enjoyed your visit O2. And yes, Dominica does have it's own captivating natural beauty.

[cdnus]

We spent 2 weeks vacation on St. Lucia a number of years ago.
Met & made friends with a couple from Wisconsin, we have stayed in close contact with them & have enjoyed other vacations with them in different locations.
We went to the Sunday night "JUMP UP' in I believe it was-- Gros Isle---now that is a party!!! Left us with many fond memories.

Craig

[VRM]

Thanks Buzz, for pointing out 'the rest of the story'.
Funny how the orignal poster now backs away from his link, and perhaps the thread title (though no acknolwedgement that it may have been the wrong thing to post).
Also funny how the topic gets re-routed to the beauty of St Lucia.

I completely agree with Buzz - if someone tried to do all of those things to me or mine you might only find parts of them.

And that is something we as a country we need to consider when we invade places like Iraq or Iran as their family structure tends to be even more tighlty knit than ours - and revenge can be a strong motivation in that part of the world.

Sometimes the US is not always the good guy.

Steve

[CobraEd]

How have I backed away from it? I simply stated the facts:

1) I did not write it
2) It was in an email that is going all around, title and all
3) It is very interesting so I posted it

After reading more about Haiti, I discovered the link about the indiginous Taino people that I thought was even more interesting, so I posted that too.


I have no opinion one way or another except for pouring in all that money all those years, but apparently all of the things did happen and are historically correct.

Nothing more, nothing less.


.

[VRM]

CobraEd,
Bull...you posted it - you own it. It was more a statement of fact than questioning 'did this really happen'?

I've seen the email as well - none of them came through with that title.

And who added the 'mad' face? Was that there originally as well?

There are just way too many people who just like to forward on whatever crap of the day hits their inbox.

I'm glad you went and did some follow-up research - maybe next time you will do it BEFORE posting the spam of the day.

Steve

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by VRM

I'm glad you went and did some follow-up research - maybe next time you will do it BEFORE posting the spam of the day.

If people stopped reposting crud from the flood that pours into their inboxes from other people reposting crud that flooded into THEIR inboxes (repeat as many times as you like), the contents of the internet would fit on a single floppy disc.

I find it amazing how often a thread like this can go on and on and on before someone simply looks up a fact that counters the entire point of the discussion. As you say, simply posting 'something' that 'someone' sent you 'because it was interesting' is rarely a service to anyone downstream.

Haiti is near-hopeless for so many reasons it's hard to count them all. The damage done by centuries of misrule and abuse of the population and resources may not be un-doable by any reasonable effort. Certainly the efforts of my great-uncle, who has spent nearly 50 years there teaching and organizing communities, hasn't made much of a dent.

[CobraEd]

of course I own it, . . . why wouldn't I ?????

The reason for the mad face is for the reason I clearly stated: "except for pouring in all that money all those years"


.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

of course I own it, . . . why wouldn't I ?????

The reason for the mad face is for the reason I clearly stated: "except for pouring in all that money all those years"


.

So then what is the 'cultural' thing?

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by VRM

So then what is the 'cultural' thing?

You don't recognize a code word when you see it?

[RAZOR]

A little more of Haiti's history


Haiti’s Troubled Background:
Since gaining independence from France in a bloody rebellion in 1804, Haiti had gone through a succession of dictators. By the early twentieth century, the population was uneducated, poor and hungry. The only cash crop was coffee, grown on some sparse bushes in the mountains. In 1908, the country totally broke down. Regional warlords and militias known as cacos fought in the streets. Between 1908 and 1915 no less than seven men seized the presidency and most of them met some sort of gruesome end: one was hacked to pieces in the street, another killed by a bomb and yet another was probably poisoned.
The United States and the Caribbean:
Meanwhile, the United States was expanding its sphere of influence in the Caribbean. In 1898, it had won Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain in the Spanish-American War: Cuba was granted freedom but Puerto Rico was not. The Panama Canal opened in 1914: the United States had invested heavily in building it and had even gone to great pains to separate Panama from Colombia in order to be able to administer it. The strategic value of the canal, both economically and militarily, was enormous. In 1914, the United States had also been meddling in the Dominican Republic, which shares the island of Hispaniola with Haiti.
Haiti in 1915:
Europe was at war and Germany was faring well. President Woodrow Wilson feared that Germany might invade Haiti in order to establish a military base there: a base that would be very close to the precious Canal. He had a right to worry: there were many German settlers in Haiti who had financed the rampaging cacos with loans that would never be repaid and they were begging Germany to invade and restore order. In February of 1915, pro-US strongman Jean Vilbrun Guillaume Sam seized power and for a while it seemed that he would be able to look after US military and economic interests.
The US Seizes Control:
In July of 1915, however, Sam ordered a massacre of 167 political prisoners and he was himself lynched by an angry mob that broke into the French Embassy to get at him. Fearing that anti-US caco leader Rosalvo Bobo might take over, Wilson ordered an invasion. The invasion came as no surprise: American warships had been in Haitian waters for most of 1914 and 1915 and American Admiral William B. Caperton had been keeping a close eye on events. The marines that stormed the shores of Haiti were met with relief rather than resistance and an interim government was soon set up.
Haiti Under US Control:
Americans were put in charge of public works, agriculture, health, customs and the police. General Philippe Sudre Dartiguenave was made president in spite of popular support for Bobo. A new Constitution, prepared in the United States, was pushed through a reluctant Congress: according to a debated report, the author of the document was none other than a young Assistant Secretary of the Navy named Franklin Delano Roosevelt. The most interesting inclusion in the constitution was the right of whites to own land, which had not been permitted since the days of French colonial rule.
Unhappy Haiti:
Although the violence had ceased and order had been restored, most Haitians did not approve of the occupation. They wanted Bobo as president, resented the Americans’ high-handed attitude towards the reforms and were indignant about a Constitution that was not written by Haitians. The Americans managed to irk every social class in Haiti: the poor were forced to work building roads, the patriotic middle class resented the foreigners and the elite upper class was mad that the Americans did away with the corruption in government spending that had previously made them rich.
The Americans Depart:
Meanwhile, back in the United States, the Great Depression hit and citizens began wondering why the government was spending so much money to occupy an unhappy Haiti. In 1930, President Hoover sent a delegation to meet with President Louis Borno (who had succeeded Sudre Dartiguenave in 1922). It was decided to hold new elections and begin the process of withdrawing American forces and administrators. Sténio Vincent was elected president and the removal of the Americans began. The last of the American Marines left in 1934. A small American delegation remained in Haiti until 1941 to defend American economic interests.
Legacy of the American Occupation:
For a while, the order established by the Americans lasted in Haiti. The capable Vincent remained in power until 1941, when he resigned and left Elie Lescot in power. By 1946 Lescot was overthrown. This marked the return to chaos for Haiti until 1957 when they tyrannical François Duvalier took over, beginning a decades-long reign of terror.

Although the Haitians resented their presence, the Americans accomplished quite a bit in Haiti during their 19-year occupation, including many new schools, roads, lighthouses, piers, irrigation and agricultural projects and more. The Americans also trained the Garde D'Haiti, a national police force that became an important political force once the Americans left.

Haiti’s Troubled Background:
Since gaining independence from France in a bloody rebellion in 1804, Haiti had gone through a succession of dictators. By the early twentieth century, the population was uneducated, poor and hungry. The only cash crop was coffee, grown on some sparse bushes in the mountains. In 1908, the country totally broke down. Regional warlords and militias known as cacos fought in the streets. Between 1908 and 1915 no less than seven men seized the presidency and most of them met some sort of gruesome end: one was hacked to pieces in the street, another killed by a bomb and yet another was probably poisoned.
The United States and the Caribbean:
Meanwhile, the United States was expanding its sphere of influence in the Caribbean. In 1898, it had won Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain in the Spanish-American War: Cuba was granted freedom but Puerto Rico was not. The Panama Canal opened in 1914: the United States had invested heavily in building it and had even gone to great pains to separate Panama from Colombia in order to be able to administer it. The strategic value of the canal, both economically and militarily, was enormous. In 1914, the United States had also been meddling in the Dominican Republic, which shares the island of Hispaniola with Haiti.
Haiti in 1915:
Europe was at war and Germany was faring well. President Woodrow Wilson feared that Germany might invade Haiti in order to establish a military base there: a base that would be very close to the precious Canal. He had a right to worry: there were many German settlers in Haiti who had financed the rampaging cacos with loans that would never be repaid and they were begging Germany to invade and restore order. In February of 1915, pro-US strongman Jean Vilbrun Guillaume Sam seized power and for a while it seemed that he would be able to look after US military and economic interests.
The US Seizes Control:
In July of 1915, however, Sam ordered a massacre of 167 political prisoners and he was himself lynched by an angry mob that broke into the French Embassy to get at him. Fearing that anti-US caco leader Rosalvo Bobo might take over, Wilson ordered an invasion. The invasion came as no surprise: American warships had been in Haitian waters for most of 1914 and 1915 and American Admiral William B. Caperton had been keeping a close eye on events. The marines that stormed the shores of Haiti were met with relief rather than resistance and an interim government was soon set up.
Haiti Under US Control:
Americans were put in charge of public works, agriculture, health, customs and the police. General Philippe Sudre Dartiguenave was made president in spite of popular support for Bobo. A new Constitution, prepared in the United States, was pushed through a reluctant Congress: according to a debated report, the author of the document was none other than a young Assistant Secretary of the Navy named Franklin Delano Roosevelt. The most interesting inclusion in the constitution was the right of whites to own land, which had not been permitted since the days of French colonial rule.
Unhappy Haiti:
Although the violence had ceased and order had been restored, most Haitians did not approve of the occupation. They wanted Bobo as president, resented the Americans’ high-handed attitude towards the reforms and were indignant about a Constitution that was not written by Haitians. The Americans managed to irk every social class in Haiti: the poor were forced to work building roads, the patriotic middle class resented the foreigners and the elite upper class was mad that the Americans did away with the corruption in government spending that had previously made them rich.
The Americans Depart:
Meanwhile, back in the United States, the Great Depression hit and citizens began wondering why the government was spending so much money to occupy an unhappy Haiti. In 1930, President Hoover sent a delegation to meet with President Louis Borno (who had succeeded Sudre Dartiguenave in 1922). It was decided to hold new elections and begin the process of withdrawing American forces and administrators. Sténio Vincent was elected president and the removal of the Americans began. The last of the American Marines left in 1934. A small American delegation remained in Haiti until 1941 to defend American economic interests.
Legacy of the American Occupation:
For a while, the order established by the Americans lasted in Haiti. The capable Vincent remained in power until 1941, when he resigned and left Elie Lescot in power. By 1946 Lescot was overthrown. This marked the return to chaos for Haiti until 1957 when they tyrannical François Duvalier took over, beginning a decades-long reign of terror.

Although the Haitians resented their presence, the Americans accomplished quite a bit in Haiti during their 19-year occupation, including many new schools, roads, lighthouses, piers, irrigation and agricultural projects and more. The Americans also trained the Garde D'Haiti, a national police force that became an important political force once the Americans left.
Source:Herring,Hubert. A History of Latin America from the beginning to the Present.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Gunner

You don't recognize a code word when you see it?

Sure I do. I just want to know if he is man enough to say in plain English what he is insinuating with pseudo-PC code words.

We have sent money and support to Haiti in the past because it was in our own interests to do so - even though the results backfired (something that usually happens).
I wonder if we are capable as a people of sending money and support because it is the humanitarian thing to do.

Steve

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by VRM

Sure I do. I just want to know if he is man enough to say in plain English what he is insinuating with pseudo-PC code words.

We have sent money and support to Haiti in the past because it was in our own interests to do so - even though the results backfired (something that usually happens).
I wonder if we are capable as a people of sending money and support because it is the humanitarian thing to do.

Steve

As soon as I saw what happened in Haiti on tv, I told my wife that we needed to help. I immediately got on the Red Cross Web site and donated A LOT of money to the Hatian relief fund because it was in the best interest of my fellow human beings over there. I did not send the money because "it was in our own interests to do so" as you do.

Be a man and stop your girlish whining. What I posted is 100% correct and is substantiated by the post by Razor where more words and details are used but say the exact same thing!

I am tired of this immaturity. Not only will I not post on this thread anymore, I will not bother to even read it.

It is pointless!



.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

It is pointless!

.

Good - so it ends in the same spirit in which it was started.

Steve