Vanishing Sea

[Ron61]

This could happen in other places also as the fresh water becomes more and more scarce.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100404/...n_central_asia

Ron

[Bill Bess]

Good point Ron!

It's sort of like around here in AZ, the Colorado River is pretty much used up by the time it's water reaches Mexico. Most of the lakes, like Powel, Mead and Mohave are dropping in level do to over use by California, Nevada, and AZ. The only nice thing is that they keep Lake Havasu full because that's the lake that ( water distribution points) supplies California and AZ.
I just wonder what will happen in 50 years?

[Ron61]

Bill,

I don't think there will be enough fresh water for everyone in 50 years. I read on some news report that there are areas around Phoenix that are starting to sink because they have pumped so much water out of the ground that the aquifers can't fill back up via normal ground water. I believe the airport was on of the sinking areas.

Also just two days ago on TV They had a 2 hour show about a desalinization plant that they have built back East but I forget where. It produces quitem a bit of fresh water but they said it was to expensive to build them. I wonder when the easily available fresh water is gone, if it will be any cheaper then.

Ron

[lnfletcher]

I think they have been saying that for the last 50 years.

[Ron61]

They have, but every year there are more and more people and buildings using more and more water. What was used 50 years ago is a drip compared to now and they just keep building and using more as if there is no end to it. We have several small towns around here that have ran out of water for the last two summers and had to have it trucked in. At least this Winter we did get about average rainfall for the first time in 5 years but that can't make up for the last 5 years of drought, so we are already on water rationing of sorts. And when the real heat hits, it will be worse.

Ron

[Jamo]

The Colorado hasn't reached the Gulf for a long time...the All-American canal takes what's left, leving only a mud flat. Lived in Imperial Valley for several years...had clients in Yuma, Blythe and Parker.

Ron...doesn't matter how much rain we ever get in California...it's all wasted until we build more storage. More storage allows for greater flows to help the fisheries, more irrigation water and provides for expected urban growth. A side benefit will be increased power production. Much of it can be obtained by simply raising the small-to-medium sized dams, and by recharging underground supplies...very few new dams would have to be built. Sacramento-Stockton needs to refine their runoff...we can ill afford the extra water needed to flush their pollution.

The Shasta drainage, of all places, should never have want for water.

[Rick Parker]

Just a thought but compared to say 30 years ago, think about how much more water is bottled and setting in warehouses in the form of soda pop and water, plus in underground pipes, toilets, pools etc........

[Ron61]

Jamo,

I agree on the storage as we definitely need more of it. They have talked for years about raising the height of Shasta Dam, but the place it is built would make it a major undertaking and would cost far more than the original dam, even in the dollars back then. Another thing is they have taken out two or three of the small dams up in the mountains here the past couple of years. Said it cost to much to maintain them, so the places they served with electric power and water are now having to get it from other places. Right now Shasta Lake is just 21 feet from the top but won't make it as that last 20 feet takes a huge amount of water. But it is the highest it has been in the past 5 years and this Summer was the lowest it has been since the lake was first filled. Keswick couldn't hold much more water even if it was higher as the canyon there is pretty narrow. Whiskeytown to me would be the best place up here to maybe try to add storage. But I doubt they will do anything to any of the dams. I think we are about maxed out on storage capacity up here, but they need more on farther South so that what is let out here to make sure they have room for the snow run off isn't just wasted by going down the river and into the bay. And we wouldn't have any shortage of water if so much didn't have to be let out to run South and keep the river flowing. In normal Winters, we can just make it, but with the drought we have had it is worse than many people realize. They did announce last week that the farmers up in this area would get more water this year, so I guess the ones on South of here will have theirs cut. It is a difficult situation right now as there just isn't enough storage to meet the ever expanding needs for water.

Ron
Ron

[Gunner]

Well, when you fly over the LA area and see the vast stretches of green lawns and pools in what is naturally scrub desert, you begin to understand why Northern Californians have battled the Delta bypass for decades. Looks like we're about to lose - they've snuck the major legislation and stuff around the watchdogs and avoided the well-known hot-button term "Peripheral Canal" even though that's exactly what's up.

They're only going to take a little when they need it. Honest. Promise. Riiiiight.

I say shut off the taps and let LA survive as a desert community... if it can.

[Silverback51]

Solar desalinators.

California has the Pacific Ocean and all kinds of sunshine.

[Jamo]

Ron...agree re Shasta...same with Oroville. One wet year doesn't end a drought. That's why I said its the small to medium sized dam that can be raised. That includes Friant, Pine Flat, Kaweah and Success down here (all obviously south of the Delta). Auburn should've been built decades ago to serve the needs of the Sacramento region, especially to help dilute its urban runoff. That amount of water damn near equals what is sent to LA, which gets the vast majority of its water from the Owens Valley and the Colorado.

Sacramento and the Delta are the problems right now, and has created the blockage. It's not just the pumps taking out the salmon's dinner (smelt), but increased salination of the Delta and the increased pollution coming from the Sacramento-Stockton area's outdated system (though Stockton has done a good job modernizing theirs).

I represent many growers in the Delta...wine growers in Lodi to asparagus farmers on various islands. They will tell you it's not so much the quantity of water but the lack of quality which is killing the Delta, on a much larger scale than Kesterson.

The peripheral canal was designed to be part of the state and federal water systems from the get go...just like drains from the Westside were supposed to be built to take runoff to the Bay. Half built system has resulted in a half assed result.

Unfortunately, too many folks have little understanding of the water situation and can speak only from a lack of information. When you live or die with water, like the folks around Redding or down here where crops are grown, it's frustrating to have to allow folks with no experience or knowledge have some say in the equation by uttering knee-jerk soundbites.

[Ron61]

Jamo I think you hit the largest point right on the head about the Auburn Dam. It should have been built long ago and raising the smaller ones that you list would help. It seems at times that people on down South of here think there is no end to the water that should be let through to them. Last year they had to shut down two of the generators at Shasta because the water was so low it was heating the river below to much for the salmon to survive. And I believe Coleman Hatchery here said they only had about 1/3rd of the normal fish run this last year. From what I have read and heard, more salt water is penetrating farther into the Delta, but there just isn't enough fresh water to flush it all back out. Thanks tom a near normal rainfall this Winter and a fair amount of snow pack in the mountains, this Summer won't be quite as bad as the past 5, but there still won't be nearly the amount of water they want down there. You know the layout of the towns here and we avoided having our water cut by 50% last year through a little know fact out of this area and wound up getting 90% of our normal city water ration. But it cost us quite a bit of money. I am not on the water board for the city but know the people that are and I spend quite a bit of time over at the city chambers talking with them. It was partly my proposal last year that got the extra water, but the screaming about the rates going up could be heard in Arizona. But they were gong to go up almost as much anyway and there would have been much less water.

Another thing that could come into play is if they are correct in forecasting that this summer here will be hotter than the last one which was a bad one. That would get rid of the snow pack to fast and it would all run off and be gone.

Ron

[Sharroll Celby]

Originally Posted by Gunner

Well, when you fly over the LA area and see the vast stretches of green lawns and pools in what is naturally scrub desert, you begin to understand why Northern Californians have battled the Delta bypass for decades. Looks like we're about to lose - they've snuck the major legislation and stuff around the watchdogs and avoided the well-known hot-button term "Peripheral Canal" even though that's exactly what's up.

They're only going to take a little when they need it. Honest. Promise. Riiiiight.

I say shut off the taps and let LA survive as a desert community... if it can.

Actually, most of the Los Angeles area of Southern California is best described as a "Mediterranean" climate, NOT, as you incorrectly posted, a "scrub desert."

[VRM]

Well, maybe the solution is for all of us in the northeast who have waaaay more water than we can use (due to record rainfalls the last few years) to send it out to CA.

We have folks here with so much water that they could probably email each of you a few gallons every minute and not even miss it.

Steve

[Ron61]

Hey Steve,

How did you fare in the heavy rains? No flooding of the house I hope. I have seen pictures of some of the towns back through some of the flood areas and it was a mess. And it will take a long time to get the homes and other things back to normal.

Ron

[Black Mamba]

As silverback51 mentioned, desalinization for california would be a good solution. Though still costly at this point and with very high energy consumption, a viable possibility for the future. Energy usage could be dealt with through solar or wave energy, both of which reduce the greatest challenge desalinization faces.

Something I thought of years ago, and feel free to slap me if this is too far out there, would be a pipe laid down from the northwest, probably the mouth of the Columbia River, to southern California. Submerge it off the coast so there will be no dealing with right of way property squabbles or issues with possible leaks. A pumping station at both ends should keep water flowing. Yes, this is a big undertaking, but any solution we look at will be equal if not greater.

[Silverback51]

All we have to do is commit ourselves to doing it.



http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.co...dification.htm

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by Sharroll Celby

Actually, most of the Los Angeles area of Southern California is best described as a "Mediterranean" climate, NOT, as you incorrectly posted, a "scrub desert."

Mediterranean is more a description of climate than geography. You'll note that most areas of the Med are scrubby, sandy territory that's not terribly arable or fertile. Cultivation in Italy and Greece is largely olive trees because they're extremely hardy and don't require irrigation in most years. Also consider the entire top of Africa, which is "Mediterranean." Most of the area is not some lush resort jungle, or anything like it.

A map of underlying geography and ecology shows that the LA Basin has a few arable regions, but can fairly be described as a scrub desert, chaparral or similar low-water, hardy-growth zone. It doesn't have one tenth the water it needs for its population and never did; IMVHO squatter's rights don't entitle it to half the water in the Western US.

Those vast stretches of desert north of the Grapevine - you know, the ones posted with b*tch signs every mile or so - are even less naturally arable and have an even lesser right to someone else's water.

I might change my mind the next time I fly over and see a lot more native-plant landscaping and a lot fewer pools.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

All we have to do is commit ourselves to doing it.

Well, maybe. Solar desalinization is one of those things that looks good on paper but ends up having huge problems in implementation. Desal is waiting for a huge reduction in the cost of power or a breakthrough in osmotic technology. I don't see anything else ever reaching commercial (that is, useful) scale. Just possibly something based on OTEP (not necessarily electric in the end, but exploiting temperature differences), but the massive grids and structures needed would be hazards to shipping, navigation and wildlife while being terribly fragile and exposed to sabotage or attack.

Towing icebergs and running pipelines from Washington make more economic sense - but not much.

[Black Mamba]

Wave Energy is being funded, developed and pretty close to being online:

http://www.alternative-energy-news.i...ro/wave-power/

so if we're talking about offshore desal the main issue is probably the excess salt and of course the cost to build a plant large enough to adequately supplement SoCal's ever growing thirst.

I think Tampa Bay is currently using desalination but not sure how theirs is set up.

Haven't heard about towing icebergs, sounds a little bit like the episode of the Beverly Hillbillies when some scammer want's Jed to invest in a giant fan set in the Santa Monica mountains to blow the smog away... unrealistic and temporary at best.