Music & War

[VRM]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

No draft - so, no protest songs - only pro-military songs - as it should be.

CdC,
Most of the stuff I mentioned ARE protest songs. They are protesting our policies and the people who define those policies - not the people who are assigned to carry them out.

Jamo,
I think it is interesting that you mention that this generation has a sense of duty. Enlistment numbers are at an all-time low.
I see a lot more of them as being realists rather than conservatives or liberals. They want less government, less taxes (conservative issues), but also don't want their taxes given to companies, and they don't much care who marries whom (liberal issues). Obviously it goes a lot deeper than that, especially when you take religion and region into account (though 20-somethings seem a lot less concerned about religion than the 50-somethings).

Still, I see a lot of them willing to work to fix a lot of the problems created by the last couple of generations. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.

Steve

[Sizzler]

Originally Posted by TampaFla

Have to disagree Sizzler, the "man" can never take over the music business. My opinion, the "war" is not in the music, simply because the "war" is not part of the culture of those buying the music. But, should it become part of the culture....pro 0r con......you would notice that the 60s are the same as the 20s.

You won't have real protest until they reinstate the draft and suddenly it becomes harder to stay out of the war.

But you won't get a draft because you don't have the pool of candidates available who aren't already in college like you did back in the 60's. Back then, there was still a substantial percentage of high school males that didn't go on to college. Now, that percentage is probably reversed. And you'd also have to deal with the issue of drafting women. Won't happen. They'll pull out of Iraq before they draft any of their precious creampuffs today.


Protest Music Video

[Jamo]

Steve...more than interesting that I say that...it's the phuking truth (as if that matters these days).

Our military personnel levels are set lower now, so enlistment levels are lower...duh.

I absolutely agree with you about this generation being realists on more issues and wanting to fix things going forward. We could learn alot from them if we would all STFU and stop b!tching when stuff gets tough. I dare say, that is what our generation will be remembered for.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Sizzler

You won't have real protest until they reinstate the draft and suddenly it becomes harder to stay out of the war.

But you won't get a draft because you don't have the pool of candidates available who aren't already in college like you did back in the 60's. Back then, there was still a substantial percentage of high school males that didn't go on to college. Now, that percentage is probably reversed. And you'd also have to deal with the issue of drafting women. Won't happen. They'll pull out of Iraq before they draft any of their precious creampuffs today.


Protest Music Video

You don't even make any sense any more...read what you just wrote. You say more folks are in college, and less are candidates for the draft.

Yet...we don't have a draft and folks enlist. Guess they must be leaving college to do so.

This is exactly the kind of double speak BS liberals and their fellow travelers dump upon the population.

[1ntCobra]

No protest songs?

I was going to mention Green Day, American Idiot too.

Try Disturbed, Ten Thousand Fists. The songs Deify and Sacred Lie are examples. Plus that CD has a remake of Land of Confusion, which has gotten some air play.

And Perhaps Incubus, A Crow Left of Murder. The song Megalomanic, which has also gotten air play.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

No protest songs?

I was going to mention Green Day, American Idiot too.

Try Disturbed, Ten Thousand Fists. The songs Deify and Sacred Lie are examples. Plus that CD has a remake of Land of Confusion, which has gotten some air play.

And Perhaps Incubus, A Crow Left of Murder. The song Megalomanic, which has also gotten air play.

Hey we have all these liberal anti-war songs.

Where are the conservative pro-war songs???

I guess I'll just have to make up some pro-war lyrics for myself... "oh, let's take all the oil from the iraqis, heck we should ship all those insurgents off to the arctic circle, and let the polar bears, and global warming eventually take care of them..."

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Hey we have all these liberal anti-war songs.

Where are the conservative pro-war songs???

I guess I'll just have to make up some pro-war lyrics for myself... "oh, let's take all the oil from the iraqis, heck we should ship all those insurgents off to the arctic circle, and let the polar bears, and global warming eventually take care of them..."

I'm really trying to understand what kind of brain matter it requires to post, then immediate quote oneself as if to make a relevant point.

Obviously, folks hear what they want to hear. Most folks on a Cobra site appreciate the sound of American V8s. Others are happy listening to a rotating sewing machine.

[1ntCobra]

When I quote myself I prefer using the whacked, jekylhyde smiley.

Which of course probably makes one of my statements not relevant to one of my personalities. Oh crap, shouldn't I create other logins for that purpose.

You know I may never learn to just stay out of the lounge...

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Steve...more than interesting that I say that...it's the phuking truth (as if that matters these days).

Our military personnel levels are set lower now, so enlistment levels are lower...duh.

I absolutely agree with you about this generation being realists on more issues and wanting to fix things going forward. We could learn alot from them if we would all STFU and stop b!tching when stuff gets tough. I dare say, that is what our generation will be remembered for.

Jamo,
duh back at you... Enlistment levels are NOT lower because the personnel levels are set lower. How have you missed this??? Military recruiters have been falling further and further behind on their recruitment goals for the past couple of years. Enlistment bonuses are rising, but fewer people are going for it.
Also, waivers for a criminal past are now allowed in order to get closer to recruitment goals. It puts a big hole in what you were saying about these kids stepping up and doing their duty.
They have no problem doing what needs to be done, but they are going to do it on their terms, not yours. If you start a war that they don't want you are going to end up stewing in it. I bet your daughters have friends that you and your parents would not have ever been allowed to associate with. It's a lot tougher to swallow the anti-gay/muslim/black propaganda of your generation and the one prior when more of the people you associate with are in one of those groups.

My generation had a lot of the same exposure as todays 20-somethings, but most of my generation suffers from a huge case of cynicism and apathy (I'll certainly admit to the former).

And don't lump me in with your generation. You are a much older fart than I am.

Steve

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

When I quote myself I prefer using the whacked, jekylhyde smiley.

Which of course probably makes one of my statements not relevant to one of my personalities. Oh crap, shouldn't I create other logins for that purpose.

You know I may never learn to just stay out of the lounge...

Why? Stick around and catch some of the crap we all sling at each other. Sort of a web version of dodge ball.

[Jamo]

Steve, funny thing about farts...doesn't matter whether they are young or old, they all stink to some degree.

Yeah, you're partially right about about some of the enlistments dropping due to factors other than troop levels being dropped, but their are a variety of reasons working in combination, not just the war.

Another huge factor is a robust economy...and low unemployment. Enlistment levels (sans drafts) have always been a good barometer of economic conditions, though they necessarily trail in time.

I want the current generation (including my three girls) to do things on their own terms...let them decide what their own futures hold. I think it's called evolution.

BTW, none of their friends have shocked me...yet. At least not as much as I did to my folks by marrying a white chic. Now THERE was some hell to pay. Then again, she's got two eyebrows and no moustache.

[GlynMeek]

Oh good, a perfect thread for me to use my recently attained 'grumpy old man graduate degree'....

I have been ranting to my wife about one particular song from last year(which I happen to REALLY like), which I think illustrates the generational differences and DRAMATIC changes that have taken place over the last 4 decades. Who, among us oldies, can forget Bob Dylan and...

"Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."

...essentially, an anthem for a generation that WANTED to change the world. Now, some may say that we failed, but dear god, at least we TRIED. Compare and contrast this with John Mayer's brilliant song...

"And we're still waiting
Waiting on the world to change
We keep on waiting waiting on the world to change
One day our generation
Is gonna rule the population
So we keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change"

How did we go so far downhill that in only 40 years, we moved from a generation that went ALL OUT to CHANGE the world, to a generation that just wants to sit around and wait for it to change around them???????

signed

sadly disappointed!!!

[VRM]

Jamo,
Yep on the farts stinking, but what with you being a moderator you do out-rank me.

They goals were dropped in the VERY short term (for political 'make things look better than they are' reasons), but they are supposed to be made up in the long term, and there really is no way that they will. They have about 50% left of their goal for the year, and they have 3 months left to do it in. Oh, and I never said it was just the war.

Good for you regarding your daughters. I think it is a good thing to have the latitude to make mistakes and learn.

I suspect that you are a rather tough person to shock, but you also managed to venture past your own backyard - that sort of thing often goes hand-in-hand. You also don't seem to be as stuck in black and white as many of your generation are. Thats going to help you relate to them (and others their age)on their terms.

I'm curious - what do your daughters think of the war in Iraq? Do you talk with them about it?

Steve

[Jamo]

I do engage them in conversation about it, Steve...all three have friends in the military or signed up to go in the near future. All three have different views.

One is totally against our involvement but realizes someone needed to go in, one feels we need to stay as long as it takes but is frustrated by slow progress by the Iraqi government, and one feels we ought to simply take over the damn place simply because there are too many competing factions.

All three see terrorism as a fact of life in their futures.

I guess it's not unlike those of us who grew up during the Cold War...it's just there.

Never asked...do you have kids?

[VRM]

Nope, no kids...my wife and I enjoy spur-of-the-moment travel too much.
I'm 'fun uncle Steve' to about a dozen of our friends/relatives kids from ages 2-12. We spoil them all...

Interestingly enough, with the exception of one of my best friends, all of the people I talk politics with are either your age (50's and older), or young 20's.

One (son of parents in one of my car clubs) was 17 and had been considering joining the armed forces just before the invasion (he didn't - but he has recently said he would have if we had stuck only with Afghanistan). We were all sitting around after a car show talking and he said that if we invade Iraq we would just be handing it over to Iran. Then he said that sometimes the enemy you know is better than the enemy you don't. His parents were pretty PO'ed, but they now agree with him. He is either classsical Liberal or classical Conservative - I have not yet figured that one out. He is the one who piqued my interest in Ron Paul.

Another one, who is now 27, just sold his auto detailing business. He was a young kid in one of my car clubs during Gulf 1. His parents lost interest, but he has gas in his veins. We get together for beers every so often and discuss things. He thinks it was a bad idea to go in without finishing Afghanistan first. He does not mind that we went in, but he thinks we should have had solid reasons for doing so. Crimes against humanity works fine for him (and to some extent for me as well). He tends to have an interventionist streak that I disagree with on a regular basis. He does agree with my theory that the Iraqis would have likely overthrown Uday and/or Qusay at some point. He tends to vote GOP, but has been leaning towards Libertarians because he is getting very sick of Neocons.

Both of these two think that we should not just pull out ASAP. One has favoured a phased withdrawal over the next year, with a return only if asked by the Iraqi government. The other originally wanted to say until the job is done, but now thinks that we are causing some of the problems, but also preventing some others. He is not quite sure what to do now. He is also very pissed that we disbanded the Iraqi army. He credits that with most of the failures there.

Another is the daughter of one of my wifes friends from work. She is 24ish and is a total peacenik. She thinks an invasion of both countries was a bad idea, and wants us to get out now. I showed her an online version of Art of War, and she is fascinated by the idea of winning without fighting. She is the only one of her generation I have come across who thinks fighting back with weapons is wrong. She puts a lot of faith in psychological warfare. She does not see the need for military force to be used in conjunction. I find her the most frustrating (even including everyone on this forum) to talk with about this topic.

The last one is a guy I work with. He is right out of college, and has a 4 month old. He says he did not favour going in to Iraq as it was not going to benefit us enough to be worth the cost, as long as the inspectors were allowed to stay. He (like myself) had no problem with military action against Iraq if the weapons inspectors were forced to leave. Same goes for Iran. he is very pissed off at our government for making some really bonehead mistakes, and not even realising who we are fighting and taking the fight to them. He takes his politics seriously, and can't stand people who don't know who we are fighting (one of his best friends here at work is Muslim) and why. He wants your generation and the one just before to get their heads out of their butts and actually examine who and what we are fighting. He says he tended to vote GOP, but he now finds them corrupt and stupid. He is not keen on the idea of the DNC in charge either, though.

I interact with a lot of younger folks on a regular basis, but these are the ones I have the most in-depth conversations with. Some of those conversations go until 4am!

None of these people are very religious, and all are irritated by the current GOP sucking up to organised religion. All have read the Constitution and seem to have a good understanding of it. They all see their freedoms being taken away little by little, and they are getting very sick of it. They all favour gay marriage, the right to own firearms, sex ed in schools, the right to abortion, and the death penalty (except the peacnik). None of them support welfare or affirmative action, but they all favour strong penalties for discrimination. They all are spiritual, but not religious. They all think it is both funny and sad that many of you older folks always need to pigeonhole them into either DNC/Liberal or GOP/Conservative roles, even though they strongly adhere to aspects of both. I have the same problem with the inability of many of you older folks to grasp this simple concept.

I agree with you that this generation might actually get our collective bacon back in shape. They have the knowledge and they care about this country. They are seeing the stupidity of many of the laws passed, and the degradation of our infrastructure. My generation does as well, but most of my generation seems to be followers. The ones that are not are too wrapped up in our technical fascination with the internet to realise that we can actually use it to enhance out personal connections instead of deepening our isolation.
The one thing going for your generation that mine and the younger one do not have is a sense of history. That might be a double edged sword - they will not be restricted to limiting concepts handed down to them, but they might also forget where and why they came from.
The next 20 years are going to be very interesting.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I find this a fascinating topic.

Steve

[Jamo]

Yup, like I said before, teaching at the college level (being a guest lecturer is just pure fun) has really opened my eyes to the current generation of young adults.

Me thinks the future won't suck too much.

[TampaFla]

Well, when I said no protest songs I meant "top 40." Recently (temporarily) lost XM radio (waiting for it to be installed in new truck) and have to listen to regular radio. No protest, nor pro-war songs, i.e., 0.
Was watching a show on the rise and fall of STAX records and think there's a parallel to something said in that show... when there is no "known" audience, no record company (major ones anyway) will pay to distribute/play a song. Without wide distribution/play, no top 40. Sure, alternative radio may play some that their niche audience likes, perhaps even Rush will play some for his audience, but for the unwashed masses, 0, not enough sales.

[VRM]

Tampa,
You have to stop listening to the classical music stations...

Actually, a lot of the ones I listed did really well. Worlld Wide Suicide hit #1, Green Day had a couple of hits with theirs, and I think they got a grammy (or whatever award they give for music) for their album. James Blunt had a hit album, and John Mayer did well with his also.

I talked with my wife about this topic a few days ago - she suggested Black Eye Peas - top 20 or so with 'Where is the love'. Green Day also had 'Holiday' that was also in the top 20. Pink had 'Dear Mr President', System of a Downs had BYOB and 'Boom', and Pallot had 'Everybody has gone to war'. All of those have done very well (according to my wife).

I think that because of all the different types of music out there that there will never be a single hit that stands out as the main voice for or against anything. Rock and rap already had a number of anti Iraq war songs even when the Dixie Chicks were getting blasted for their stance.

Steve

[TampaFla]

Someone pointed out that apathy among the general "music buying" population is due in part to "no draft." I think there's merit in that view, i.e., the war is an activity that primarily affects the lives of those directly involved and that (with extended and repeat tours) in an increasingly small part of the overall population (that buys music).

[1ntCobra]

I'm not really sure about the "top 40" songs as I don't listen to radio stations that play a top 40 count down. Perhaps when my daughter gets to be a teenager she might insist on listening to a station like that in the car. But perhaps getting her an ipod can save me from that situation.

I don't have satellite radio, so I am listening to commercial radio station. As far as the commercial stations that my wife and I listen to, we have "rock", "alternative rock", "easy listening" and "news" (and I'm not the one who switches to the easy listening station). Anyway, while I had the rock station on in the car this weekend, I heard Disturbed's Land of Confusion on Saturday and Green Day's American Idiot on Sunday. Both of which I mentioned in earlier posts.

According to my itunes, Green Day's American Idiot was released in 2004. And another poster indicated that it did well in the charts and received some sort of award. So being about 3 years old, it is sort of a classic now and still getting played on commercial radio.

Maybe down in Florida, they don't have any commercial rock or alternative rock stations?