Representative Republic or Democracy?

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Roscoe

However, I think we do agree in general.

Roscoe

Probably - my last paragraph sums it up for me. Based on your comments and Jamos it seems you are completely against unions. I'm only against them most of the time.

And I don't think that they destroyed GM and Ford. Design (or lack thereof) did that, but the unions have tried to get as much as they can out of the companies, even when they are having tough times. Management has done the same. Greedy buggers...

Steve

[Roscoe]

Now that I voiced my opinion I can give you an anecdote:

Back around 1980 the Ford assembly plant in Mahwah, NJ was closing due to poor quality control and costs. Of course the local paper was attacking Ford and ran a 'human interest' story regarding the plight of the 'workers'. One guy who was making 20 bucks an hour was complaining that he would have to sell his summer home.

By the way, being against unions most of the time....is that like being 'a little bit pregnant?'

Roscoe

[VRM]

Roscoe,
Yep - I have little sympathy for that guy.

And nope - there is a small percentage of times where having a union is better than not having one.
I've worked with unions from every major telephone company in the US, as well as a bunch from overseas. All except one or two have sucked in a big way.

It's more like saying that you won't get pregnant if you use a condom - it's true 98% of the time.

Steve

[Jamo]

Steve

Concerning the 411 operators...geez, they're freeking wimmin talking on the phone all day!

The vast majority of unionized workers in this country are our lovely POS public employees who are above noramal laws in terms of discipline/discharge, have medical coverage that covers everything from Viagra to sex change operations and have overlapping retirement funds...all at the expense of our taxpaying asses.

I deal with this crap every day. Here's one: Guy wants a month off (unpaid) to go to Mexico to bury his dad. It's during the busiest season, and we tell him we can let him go for two weeks (double the time required under the contract), and that he has to use two of his three weeks of vacation (same rules you would follow under FMLA or CFRA, and as provided for under the contract). He refuses to use his vacation, and has the union file a grievance and an unfair labor practice charge...argues that he is being discriminated against because of his national origin. The union pukes file both without even checking the facts or calling the employer first. Arbitration is held on the grievance first, and the arbitrator throws it out in the first ten minutes, and berates the union pukes for wasting everyone's time.

Course, the dumbasses still won't pull their unfair labor practice charge based on the very same facts even though 1) it is preempted by the grievance procedure and 2) it has no chance.

In all of this, the employer is spending time and money, and even if it wins, cannot recoupe its costs.

This is what is called the "cost of the contract"...the hidden bullsh!t costs the unions impose everyday to drive the costs of Impalas up and drive steel production to India. Unions and their fellow travelers are simply leeches on the rest of society.

Just my opinion of course.

[VRM]

Jamo,
Those wimmin talking on the phone all day have to push a button to get permission to go to the bathroom. Rather than mocking them maybe you should give them some credit for doing a job you would never want to do.

As for the rest of it - yep I agree. There was a union guy who cut one of the new (back then) fiber cables and knocked out phone service to about 120K people in Brockton, MA for about 18 hours. I spent about 4 hours checking data circuits as things were getting patched up. I have no idea what it cost the phone company, but the guy kept his job because one of the agreements in the new contract was amnesty. There were a couple of other similar instances (that I am aware of) during that same strike.

Out of all the union guys I worked with, there were about 6 that I would be willing to work with again.

I would also be happy if the phone companies gave up their assured profits given to them by regulators in lieu of actually having to compete.

Steve

[Jamo]

Calm your ass...next thing you know you'll be complaining about CNN picking on poor folks from Idaho who like to tap dance while taking a dump in an airport stall.

Remember, I'm the one who watches citizenship-challenged folks pick grapes all day in 105 temps while wondering who will fill their jobs when their social security numbers don't line up just right on the government's keno cards.

[spl310]

Originally Posted by bomelia

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292151,00.html

I read this stuff and am left with a mild sense of angst. I suppose it is happening on both sides of the aisle, but I believe more so on the Democratic side. YouTube debates, Move on debates, Daily Kos debates. What is this? Could the Presidency one day be held by a group of people?

Mike

Already happened. Here is a quote:

Originally Posted by Hillary Clinton

I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president.

[VRM]

My ass is always very calm,
I just think that if you want to pick on someone you should pick on someone who deserves it.

What you do does not have any relevance on whether those ladies deserve to be belittled by you.

Anyway, no need to respond back on this (unless you really need to). I'm headed to Goodwood in the AM and I have some Jag lightweight notes to gather up.

Steve

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by VRM

My ass is always very calm,
I just think that if you want to pick on someone you should pick on someone who deserves it.

What you do does not have any relevance on whether those ladies deserve to be belittled by you.

Anyway, no need to respond back on this (unless you really need to). I'm headed to Goodwood in the AM and I have some Jag lightweight notes to gather up.

Steve

"...I feel the need..."

When humor is lost, so is civilization. Read what I last posted again and think about it next time you munch on some grapes.

BTW, there are many jobs which require the type of protocol you believe is so onerous. In agriculture, it would include folks working at a variety of stations in a packinghouse running conveyor operations, forklift strapping, etc. Same thing in food processing, widget-making, etc. where folks simply can't leave their positions without asking first. Men and women in Bowling Green (or any such other production line) can't just get up and "go." Obviously (and thankfully), air traffic controllers are expected to sit tight until relieved. I find nothing significant about the fact that the folks you feign concern for are women. It is simply the nature of the work. Nor does it matter whether they are men, women or transvestites...Title VII's been around a few years. Hell, I can't just get up and leave in the middle of a trial without asking the freeking judge. The most employee-friendly laws in the country (California's) only require rest breaks of ten minutes every two hours under each and every one of the Industrial Wage Commissions various Orders (ie., for every industry).

Further, objective standards of performance exist in every industry...unions, of course, would prefer to have everyone be able to keep and maintain their jobs regardless of how lousey their performance, which is exactly why so many unionized operations end up failing due to lower production/higher per unit costs.

Your pedestal has a broken leg.

Have fun in Goodwood...try to smile.

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by VRM

My ass is always very calm,
I just think that if you want to pick on someone you should pick on someone who deserves it.

What you do does not have any relevance on whether those ladies deserve to be belittled by you.

Anyway, no need to respond back on this (unless you really need to). I'm headed to Goodwood in the AM and I have some Jag lightweight notes to gather up.

Steve

I expect so much more from our English expat.

Mike

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by BeanCounter

Wes,

Maybe it's your terminology. I'm getting ready to retire soon. I've got a pretty good chunk of change compared to most retirees so I'll live fairly well as "one of the idle rich". I worked hard and put money away so that I could do that and not depend on the charity of my kids or strangers. Why should I be penalized because the others did not do the same. And contrary to some opinions not everyone is equal. Some make more than others for a variety of different reasons.

As far as the housing collapse, it's about time. People went out and took out absolutely stupid loans betting on the come. Well sometimes it just doesn't come. I know that from going bankrupt when I was 40. When you lose you lose so stop the crying and expecting everyone else to bail you out. You just go back to work and try to make it back.

As far as taxing the imports I've only got one thing to say. There wouldn't be any imports if the so called middle class didn't buy every stinking thing they send over from China. How about passing a law that they can't shop at WalMart. You'd have a general uprising of callused hands. Most people are the victims of their own stupidity and then expect everyone else to bail them out.

Bernie,

Yeah, terminology colors a view. I admit it.

Retirement? I nearly feel your pleasure. I've also worked hard and I'll be retiring in the near future. I might only have to work until I'm 66 since the Railroad Retirement (RR) follows the same increased Reagan age-rules as does the "raped and pillaged" Social Security fund. RR... here-to-fore protected by a political chastity belt so far. My retirement age depends on how the stock market does. Not that anyone would ever be tempted to manuver a way to pillage the newest untouched pile of investment money from the middleclass. RR, 401K, common stocks, etc. I predict it won't be long and we'll also be hearing about the terrible small investors encumberance and how the little 401K's are otherwise ruining everything for real Americans. And how good it is they've tanked.

I rather doubt you or I'll ever actually be "one of the idle rich" in the sense that it is unlikely that we'll ever fit in the exclusive top 5%. Doubt it barring the lottery which I don't often play anyway, as a matter of principle.

I guess for convenience sake we could look as the "idle" catagories being the top arbitrary 5% and the bottom arbitrary 5%. The bottom is related to the un-employment statistics which are probably really higher due to individuals falling off the recorded rolls. But the top 5% is probably a bit larger too. The bottom 5% is probably truely idle, while the top 5% is actually pretty busy pointing the finger at and demonizing the bottom 5%. Apparently, by the appropriate media purchases, the attention of the workers, who support all, can be diverted. I think I can afford the cheap bottom 5% but, again, I feel the lofty "invisable" top 5+% continues to clandestinely cost me (and you) a fortune. There's always that 10% (or more) anyway, eh?

My house is paid for. I took on an ARM when it halved my former rate. When it went up, I simply paid it off with cash-on-hand, part of the common-sense-plan. I agree with your take on the housing collapse. There are a lot of abusers looking for that usual handout. Unfortunately some people that chose the minimal modern house, have worked hard, and continue to do so, will also feel the pinch when their original job goes to China. First cavepersons worked 20 hours a week hunting and gathering. Then just modern dad worked 40 out in the patch. Then mom worked too. Then recently it was deemed that these lazy bums should both work more than 40 without costly overtime. Soon the American kids will be working 40+. All to keep a cave over their head. How can we compete with China if we don't erode the minimum-age work rules too. If we don't do what it takes, who will support the top and bottom 5% in the manner in which they've grown accustomed?

I don't blame Walmart personally. That's some liberal B.S. Walmart is just playing by the existing rules and playing it best, something I admire... if it's within the rules. But we can change the game rules away from mandating last man left standing, a dead end that will eventually kill America. When the American turf is equal, Walmart should/could still come out on top, but not entirely alone, in this huge Monopoly game... if they are as smart as I think they are. When I buy, I sometimes have to buy from Walmart/Target/China. Taxes and import tariffs aren't always, without fail, evil. Balance is the key. No sense walking around with their money in my pockets with my permission to take it all.

China isn't returning containers in trade by importing US goods with their extra cash. They are symbolically paying double for the lot next to your and my house. Great. Our home equity value will go way up during our retirement. We'll be rich. On paper.

Unfortunately our real estate taxes are based on home value. At least mine are. And cities can't conveniently go bankrupt like corporations can... and do... as SOP these days. So guess what one scheme, to again rip off the middle class via taxes, is? I've been a victim of my own stupidity enough... and I'm just reluctant to do it again. The middle class. Like Jamos saying... "we're doomed". Now if I can just convince everyone where the real danger lies and who really pays the taxes. And then fix it.

This isn't a partisan thing. The top 5% wield a lot of power in both parties. There are congressmen in both major parties that will help us. Alternatively, there are other politicians that are systematically sticking it to us within the smokescreen. Guys we sometimes voted for in the past.


...

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes, with all due respect, I gotta call bullsh!t on most of your statements.

Working that many hours without overtime, and then you talk about how good unions are? If your union is so good, they would have already solved that issue via the DOL or a grievance. Actually, I find your statement extremely hard to believe.

And unions now understand about running companies out of business? Again...total BS. Explain Delphi, GM, Ford... I can run down a list by the hundreds of companies that have been ripped apart and left for dead by unions..

Unions can't even agree on what's good anymore...note the largest ones leaving the old political bosses at the AFL-CIO: SEIU, Unite, UFCW, Teamsters and a few others. What's the fight about? Money. The interest of the workers mean little.

Card Check legislation...you don't even want folks to have the right to vote anymore. Instead...use peer pressure and hand folks a pen to sign up while the union organizers watch, or suffer the consequences. Karl Marx would love it.

Unions basically suck...the industries that are taking us into the future are the non-unionized ones. May they stay that way forever.

Course, that's just my opinion.

Jamo,

Considering the strength of opinions I gotta say I appreciate the civil manner in which you and Bernie replied.

The reason we don't normally get any overtime is because we work by the mile (my operations-craft as a train crewmember, roadcrew). Working all around us are Mechanical (car/locomotive repair), Maintainence of Way (ex: section gang), Yardmaster, Dispatcher and Switchmen... all of which work an 8 hour day with overtime over 8. I can guarantee you we, the train crews, do try to get over the road as quickly as possible since pay/miles are the same regardless of time essentially on duty. There are times that it seems everybody else plots against us with delay after delay. After 12 hours, FRA (Feds) require that we no longer operate. We may be stranded on a dead train, riding in a van or passengers on another train to get to a terminal where we can become "rested" off duty for at least 8 hours, that we may legally work again. The next duty call can come in 6:45 hrs with 1:15 advance duty notification. Whenever we excede 12 hours and about 45 minutes we do get overtime. Ex: My last trip out, 11:59 hrs, the last trip in, 12:00 hrs with 14:51 hrs rest layover, but alas, no overtime.

Explain Delphi, GM, Ford...
This is a little more complicated. Basically what you, and many others, are saying is that the workers are a terrible burden to their company. They took advantage of their contract. What we have here is a situation where Wimpy, of Popeye fame, says, "give me a hamburger today and I will pay you on Tuesday". It may be down on paper as a contract... but you, of anybody reading this, should know what a piece of paper is often worth today. Never ever believe Wimpy.

I can make a couple of biased comparos you may use for additional perspective.

Contracts:
Imagine that you are the counsel that has freed O.J.
Right up front you told him it would cost a lot of money. But O.J. is desperate and he agrees to pay. In a contract, mind you. Then after you win the case, he says, "You know, the real reason I'm free is because I'm obviously innocent. And I was just thinking about all the money you charged me, in my panic, for the obvious. I think it was too much. I don't deserve to be treated like that. It will be a hardship on me to pay it. I need the money for important stuff. So I'm going to ask my favorite politicians to reduce what you say I owe. And furthermore I'm going to loudly tell the public what a burden lawyers are... until the public actually believes it. Ripping us apart and leaving us for dead. Fighting back and forth at our expense and for what... money. The interest of the criminals...I mean clients... means little."
Jamo, as a sometimes berated union member, I know better and so do you. Should you as a lawyer for O.J. in this hypothetical instance, a provider of service, roll over or stand your ground? What about other providers?

Another comparo:
Some guys row the boat. Others call cadence and crack the whip. Still others man the tiller. And somebody(s), maybe one or all own the boat.
The guys rowing the boat sweat and work hard. For their effort they get an agreed upon "free lunch" even after retirement. To increase the bottom line the young guys still rowing get less food and/or row harder with less rowers. United, all (most?) of them agree they don't feel like rowing so much anymore. Damn uniters. To sweeten the deal, the owner provides free 5 cent bandaids for their blisters... even after retirement. It's in the contract. This was a good deal for the owner... until the price of bandaids went up to $100 each.

Arghh. The workers are now a terrible burden. Worse yet, the guy at the tiller was (and is?) steering in circles. So how can the boat owner afford the bandaids? Easy. Let the rowers pay for them. Or get cheaper rowers from China. Understandably, enough to make a rower want to sink the boat rather than give up a seat. Maybe some boats should be sunk. But I agree that's not realistic. The rowers should never have believed Wimpy. More importantly, somebody has to address the new cost of bandaids. Seems everybody only worries when everybody buys the bandaids. It's starting to happen.

Hmmm. Somewhere I saw a good joke on corporate rowing competition.

Card Check legislation... Hard call. But I will say that during the long drawn out National Labor Relations Board secret ballot elections, shrewd management has often intimidated or fired employees (est aver 1 in 5 if union-active) to the point that many certainly resent the ordeal. Card Check is merely a quick vote to circumvent this gauntlet. And admittedly gain advantage. Unfair? I don't know. There is a good reason for corporate to fight this and it highly likely isn't for the workers benefit. Follow the money. Also see more, both sides: Employee Free Choice Act ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act ).

Unions basically suck...
Yeah. It's too bad we need still them, after all these years. Need them to fight back against blue-blooded capitalist owner/manager coalitions that show little socialistic mercy towards the evil guy who actually does the pickin'. Unions are a necessary evil, not for the bluebloods of course.

But do you know what else is a necessary evil? With all due respect... and sorry to say it... but lawyers are. You may not agree lawyers are a necessary evil. But if the world was perfect and fair, there would be no disputes and I would not need to belong to a union... nor you to the bar.

We could work together. I think you'd make one he11 of a railroader.
Or maybe we could both pick grapes since everything would pay the same. Frolicking through the vines.
There wouldn't be any lawyers. But there would be balance of sorts, of course. Little too creamy and dull for me, I like a little conflict just to keep things interesting. A little unfairness. A continuing variance mixture of capitalism and socialism. That's just my opinion.

The industries that are taking us into the future are the non-unionized ones?
I don't know. Might not be much of a future for us caucasians. Even the Chinese are rethinking their vast government union policies... according to the latest Teamster propoganda. Seems like over half of Chinese exports aren't from Chinese owned factories. Outsiders, taking advantage of previously cheap labor no doubt. Hoffa was over there corrupting them, according to the article. It's getting to be a world economy.



...

[Jamo]

Wes

Since I don't belong to a union, and therefore don't have free paid time, I can't take all the time necessary to respond to your well-written post.

As to your overtime issue, the Railway Act conspires with the Fair Labor Standards Act to put you in the situation you're in. I've run into much the same thing with commercial fishermen working on factory ships, irrigation crews sitting in the desert waiting for Colorado River water to be delivered at their designated canal gate in the middle of the night, or tow truck drivers finding themselves "released" but chained to their cell phones and having to stay within a few minutes of the tow truck. I now understand the scenario you're working under...thanks for the info. BTW, you're screwed.

Your OJ/oarsmen examples are fun, but they really are a bit simplistic, aren't they. Maybe if you have OJ pointing a gun to his attorney's head to force him to be his attorney, or the oarsmen threaten a mutiny just before the worst rapids one might imagine, I could accept them as viable comparisons.

The problem is not just with the cost of the contract, the wages or the benefits going into the building of Impalas today...it is the cost of maintaining the benefits of the folks who built real Impalas several decades ago. The Warren Court and the NLRB of the late 50s and 60s did a fine job of making it nearly impossible for a strike to be defended against, and hot cargo actions simply served to completely strangle anyone who dared to take on the AFL-CIO, the Kennedys and the Johnsons. The laws and enforcement have only recently come back to what they were supposed to be: guidelines for a fair struggle between the parties which could lead to fair agreements which make neither suffer at the hand of the other. Easy to blame designers for product, but that doesn't answer the problem of not having enough money to put the good designs into producxtion or raising the prices of the product beyond the competition because of labor costs of folks that don't even work anymore. The PBGC is all but bankrupt from the defined-benefit plans, and yet Taft-Hartley trust funds run by the unions are so overfunded that they could build dozens of replicas of Las Vegas where the Teamsters could only put up a few casinos. Some trust funds even tell companies to take a month off from paying premiums, as if to rub their noses into it.

We are all paying for this. Look at your own industry and compare it with European and Japanese railroads...modern rails and equipment draw folks to ride and rely on that form of transportation. Other than a few Eastern and the San Diego-LA runs, nobody wants to use it as daily transportation. Look at the movement of freight...a megaport is being built south of TJ because our beloved Longshoremen don't want to allow our stateside ports to put in the modern equipment that the rest of the Pacific Rim operates with...because it will result in having to give up a great deal of featherbedding. Modern cargo carriers simply won't go to LA-Long Beach, Oakland or Seattle anymore. So we will get our lead painted toys from China via Mexico within the next decade, probably brought across by Mexican trusk which have no need to comply with the DOT. Stuff like this requires years to plan and build, and investment funds to get it going, neither of which is going to happen when labor negotiations and fellow-traveler environmentalist organization lawsuits step in to slow things down to a crawl. Time is money (more so today than a few decades ago), so why fight in courts for 10 years just to get something started when the Mexican government (or Canadian for that matter) will give you the damn land and water access just so they can develop their own economies.

It's funny, Democrats who write long letters to former territories of the Soviet Union, China and emerging Latin American nations extolling the virtues of allowing free elections for labor organizational rights are the authors of card checks. The folks in Turkistan would understand card checks a lot easier than the concept of freedom of choice in an election booth...he!!, they still carry their Communist Party cards around as momentos...they don't want choice, they just want toilet paper.

Lawyers...yup, the basturds. I was a farmer first...I drove tractor, picked grapes and tomatos and stayed up all night lighting smudge pots and starting up old airplane motors we used for wind machines. But when folks start talking about taking ag water away for a Teamster financed golf course, want to shove catalytic converters up cow asses and won't let us plow because some gawddamn prairie dog who happens to have a white tail instead of tan one lives in the field, it's either grab a gun or a briefcase.

Yet folks get all touchy when the produce they eat starts making em sick...imagine Mexican produce irrigated with sewage water. You're already eating it. More to come...please wash it thoroughly.

We have forgotten how to work...but by golly, we know our rights!

BTW...when can I take a turn at running one of them big badasses down the tracks?

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes

Since I don't belong to a union, and therefore don't have free paid time, I can't take all the time necessary to respond to your well-written post.

As to your overtime issue, the Railway Act conspires with the Fair Labor Standards Act to put you in the situation you're in... ...I now understand the scenario you're working under...thanks for the info. BTW, you're screwed.

Your OJ/oarsmen examples are fun, but they really are a bit simplistic, aren't they. Maybe if you have OJ pointing a gun to his attorney's head to force him to be his attorney, or the oarsmen threaten a mutiny just before the worst rapids one might imagine, I could accept them as viable comparisons.

The problem is not just ...it is the cost of maintaining the benefits of the folks... ...The Warren Court and the NLRB of the late 50s and 60s did a fine job of making it nearly impossible for a strike to be defended against,... ...costs of folks that don't even work anymore. The PBGC is all but bankrupt from the defined-benefit plans, and yet Taft-Hartley trust funds run by the unions are so overfunded that they could build dozens of replicas of Las Vegas where the Teamsters could only put up a few casinos. Some trust funds even tell companies to take a month off from paying premiums, as if to rub their noses into it.

We are all paying for this... ...a megaport is being built south of TJ because our beloved Longshoremen don't want to allow our stateside ports to put in the modern equipment that the rest of the Pacific Rim operates with...because it will result in having to give up a great deal of featherbedding.
BTW...when can I take a turn at running one of them big badasses down the tracks?

Jamo,

Good reply. I'm impressed with your knowledge of labor issues.

Um, "free paid time", .... I wish.
Since it is a national pay scale, the gist is that the straightrate pay is decent for my area when I do work off the miles and I get a lot of hours (read opportunity) but the same pay is probably a little short on standards around L.A. Overtime has become so common that I note it's unusual to find employee jobs without it until recent law.
I used to be self-employed where the more square foot of house done, the more cash in pocket. Now it's miles. For me overtime isn't actually an issue. I prefer to hurry and work less than 40 when I can.

Your OJ/oarsmen examples are fun, but they really are a bit simplistic, aren't they.
I believe that the most complicated mechanical machine can be understood by breaking it down to its components. Any machine is made of other smaller machines that eventually break down to wheels, levers and inclined planes and the four basic forces. In a similar way humans also behave in simple interactions that may appear initially more complicated. The basic rules still apply and an exercise in simplification adds clarity to their understanding. IMO anyway.

The O.J. problem is that the attorney has willingly given his time before he finds out he won't be paid as promised. Perhaps O.J. first pulls the gun when counsel reaches for his (O.J.'s) wallet.
The oarsmen might indeed object to quickly giving their life cheaply in the rapids... or they might object to slowly giving their life cheaply over years. For that is what we all do. We sell our time here on earth. Nice to get a fair price for it. Life can be cheap in other countries... but not here.

...The Warren Court and the NLRB of the late 50s and 60s did a fine job of making it nearly impossible for a strike to be defended against,... ...The laws and enforcement have only recently come back to what they were supposed to be: guidelines for a fair struggle between the parties which could lead to fair agreements which make neither suffer at the hand of the other...
So unions have nearly disappeared while corporate power now exceeds that of our own government. I think the pendulum may have swung the other way a bit.
As a non-owner, most corporations won't even let me effectively vote policy like my government does... kind of like what Mike was admiring at the beginning of his thread here.

As a nation we've moved to a union-avoidance philosophy; or maybe along the lines of Bernies "terminology" (colors a view), we should call it union-busting.
Here's a long but interesting insider piece on how it's done:
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting )
Seems like the tactics could be used on an opposing political party also.

...yet Taft-Hartley trust funds run by the unions are so overfunded... ...Some trust funds even tell companies to take a month off from paying premiums, as if to rub their noses into it...
Trust funds, technically not entirely run by unions... but better overfunded than castrated like SS...
...or union-influence-free PBGC which is abused by corp after corp using it as a convenient benefits cop-out while popping back up under a new corporate name. We, the middleclass taxpayer, will be bailing PBGC out sooner or later.
Recently my insurance company (State Farm) rebated part of my excess premiums. I was shocked and appalled just like you said.

featherbedding
No doubt about it, if the workforce isn't reduced by attrition, these guys rise to protect their horn-of-plenty from technology and lower paid riff-raff.
I see them as Joe Six-pack guys trying to pay off the mortgage and college tuition. Part of a dying breed of middleclass, all protecting their turf. Not a whole lot unlike the bar association preventing a bunch of would be work-release felons from hanging out a cutrate shingle. I hear some cons are pretty talented. The courts would be (would be ?) clogged with the frivolous. But come the week-end... and suits and toolbelts come off and everybody's Joe Six-pack... brothers on wheels. On Harleys, Cobras. Well, they really are brothers. Featherbedding; always proclaimed in the interest of public safety, eh? While it may seem like comparing apples and oranges, they are both fruit seen pouring out of the horn-of-plenty are they not?

BTW...when can I take a turn at running one of them big badasses down the tracks?
This could happen. All you gotta do is get to Glendive, Montana or Mandan, North Dakota to negotiate some labor. While you're there, ask local BNSF management to ride, you being a contractor that can better do his job after touring the trenches.

Although I'm no star pupil kisser, I'm a decent fairly regarded employee and acquainted with my local company officers (well enough to greet first name basis in a hallway anyway). Request and get permission to ride with me. Try to do before it's apparent an axe is going to fall.

With luck we'll make room for you even if the conductor has to kick his sheep out early. I maybe couldn't let you run legally, depending on granted-ride/FRA status, but anything could happen out in the boonies. Anything not involving sheep, of course. I can overlook conductors and their favorite sheep but that's it.


...

[bomelia]

I think my thread has been jacked.

[Jamo]

Wes...why be impressed with my knowlege of labor issues?

I've been "busting" unions in my practice for 30 years, and I teach labor and employment law at the college level. I better damn well know WTF I'm talking about.

It is your knowlege that is impressive, despite you being utterly wrong on the issues being discussed. BTW, we've gone way beyond the tactics described in the Wikpedia article...then again, the unions haven't been asleep either. It's all a modern version of the Great Game played by Russia and Great Britain a few centuries ago.

Bomelia...yeah well, what's your point?

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

Ever run one of those big BNSF's through the KC yards hauling all of those Chinese and Korean containers? I'll wave at you next time.

Bernie

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by bomelia

I think my thread has been jacked.

Mike,

Forgive us our trespasses but you lead us into temptation.

...

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes...why be impressed with my knowlege of labor issues?

I've been "busting" unions in my practice for 30 years, and I teach labor and employment law at the college level. I better damn well know WTF I'm talking about.

It is your knowlege that is impressive, despite you being utterly wrong on the issues being discussed. BTW, we've gone way beyond the tactics described in the Wikpedia article...then again, the unions haven't been asleep either. It's all a modern version of the Great Game played by Russia and Great Britain a few centuries ago.

Bomelia...yeah well, what's your point?

Jamo,

despite you being utterly wrong
Being and having been wrong is where I get all my strength.

practice for 30 years... BTW, we've gone way beyond the tactics...

Come over to the dark side, Jamo. We really need you and your experience. We're trying to save the evil American working middleclass Federation here.

You're right. Whether Monopoly, a chess game, Star Wars or cold war, we all love to play. And many believe the original Great Game frame design continues in Afghanistan and, perhaps, Iraq today.

Found the corporate boat race joke so I posted it in Jokes:
( http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/show...821#post774821 )

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Originally Posted by BeanCounter

Wes,

Ever run one of those big BNSF's through the KC yards hauling all of those Chinese and Korean containers? I'll wave at you next time.

Bernie

Bernie,

I never worked as a railroader per se in KC, Bernie. But funny you should mention it. I did attend several railroad training classes at Johnson County Community College in Overland Park. Always thought KC would be a great place to live.

If you did want to be close enough to wave at an intermodal train in KC you might have to use your passport in the near future:
"A Mexican customs facility planned for Kansas City's inland port may have to be considered the sovereign soil of Mexico as part of an effort to lure officials in that country into cooperating with the Missouri development project."
More info here: ( http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=50918 )

While you're waving, be sure to salute the Mexican Flag flying over the Kansas City facility to generate foreign good will.

You've already helped, perhaps unwillingly, by your KC real estate taxes (unless KC doesn't have any):
"To date, the Kansas City Council has voted a $2.5 million loan to KC SmartPort to build the Mexican customs facility in the West Bottoms near Kemper Arena on city-owned land east of Liberty Street and mostly south of Interstate 670."

NAFTA Super-Corridor... one reason it might get ever harder to guard both our new and old borders from illegal aliens... so why even bother, eh?

Come over to the dark side, Bernie. We need you too. "Sold American" used to be something we only heard on a 60's tobacco TV ad.


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[Ron61]

If they want to give Mexico some of our country why not give them the one part that we definitely do not need. Washington D.C. and make them take the Congress and other politicians with it as Mexican citizens.

Ron

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

The West Bottoms is already "Little Mexico". They don't have to give anything to them, they already have it. Their gangs own the night, it's sort of like Cu Chi over there.

Luckily I live in another county about 35 miles south of there. I moved from Independence to the farmland as soon as I got home from the Army.