Representative Republic or Democracy?

[bomelia]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292151,00.html

I read this stuff and am left with a mild sense of angst. I suppose it is happening on both sides of the aisle, but I believe more so on the Democratic side. YouTube debates, Move on debates, Daily Kos debates. What is this? Could the Presidency one day be held by a group of people? Same for the Senate and the House?

Recently I was reminded that the right to vote is not a right at all. It is left to the states to decide who can and cannot vote. In my state, you have to show a picture ID. Used to be that only landowners could vote. I like that. Vested, informed, interested. That would really screw up the Blue states, wouldn't it? I would love to see a map showing Blue/Red overlayed with owner/non-owner (land/house, etc).

Are these two thoughts (above 2 paragraphs) related? I think so.

Mike

[Roscoe]

Debates are fine. YouTube questions from mush brained idiots? No.

Remember: Pure Democracy is a lynch mob.

We are a Republic...ah....er....well.....we started out that way.

Don't get me started,
Roscoe

[bomelia]

But our Constitution is wrapped around the concept of a representative republic. But who today understands this and all that it entails? I think I am seeing a move towards a true democracy. Ugh. I think it might be time to "re-educate" and "re-inform" those who think we live in a democracy. Its our own fault...the word "democracy" is bantered about way too often...but the savy amongst us understand that that can be changed. This is a change that must not happen. Recognize it today before it is too late. Remember Rome. (ala the Alamo)

Mike

[Roscoe]

It IS too late.......

Roscoe

[stengun]

Howdy,

[quote=bomelia
In my state, you have to show a picture ID. Used to be that only landowners could vote. I like that. Vested, informed, interested. That would really screw up the Blue states, wouldn't it? I would love to see a map showing Blue/Red overlayed with owner/non-owner (land/house, etc).

Are these two thoughts (above 2 paragraphs) related? I think so.

Mike[/QUOTE]


Based on the above statement, I guess bomelia has never heard of or read the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or the Bill of Rights. His statement goes against what our Founding Fathers started this great Country on.

Yep, several states had passed poll tax laws back in the "Old Days" but have since them been ruled unconstitutional.

Just because a person owns land does not mean they are informed and interested and vice versa. I have a distant cousin that has a dairy w/ over 300 acres and milks over 100 head of cows. He has never voted and does not have any idea who his state and US Rep are.

He is totally uninformed and uninterested, but he does own alot of land.

Bill Clinton never owned any land and was elected to two terms as the US President. He was/is very informed and very interested. It also kinda looks like Slick Willie is headed back to the White House for another 8 years.

Paul

[bomelia]

Go lurk somewhere else.

[BeanCounter]

Mike,

Take it for what it's worth considering the source. Hey, he's from Arkansas. If you notice it took him two weeks to find someone to read him the thread and then write a reply for him.

[J. T. Toad]

How long has nugnets been back?


"Based on the above statement, I guess bomelia has never heard of or read the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or the Bill of Rights. His statement goes against what our Founding Fathers started this great Country on."

This from a group of slave owners. In one statement you prove Roscoe's point. One may have read the documents, but that is far from an understanding of the ideal.

It is too late.

it is about vested interest and tax burden. when was the last time you saw a proposition on property tax relief? yet those on the government payroll do not hesitate to raise their salaries.

voter qualification?
1) English comprehension
2) Chattel
3) if your paid by government, you don't vote. (yes, I know way out there, but think of the ramifications if those who benefit the least from paying taxes were to be responsible for the payout of said taxes.... reminds me of a tea party in Boston)


ps. Mike, don't insult Rome, we are way past that point. We should know better.

The following is like reading our front page news.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/r...fallofrome.htm

There are some adherents to single factors, but more people think Rome fell because of a combination of such factors as Christianity, decadence, lead, monetary, and military problems. Even the rise of Islam is proposed by some who think the Fall of Rome happened at Constantinople in the 15th Century.

Here are some of the explanations for the Fall of Rome:

* Decay
* Financial Problems
* The Dole and Barbarians
* Economic, Military, Gradual
* Christianity
* Vandals and Religious Controversy
* Division of the Empire
* Lead
* Hoarding and Deficit

[bomelia]

Sounds vaguely familiar...

BTW, Sten's post count is coming up again... I predict he and cheese head will be blowing away as the election draws near.

Mike

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by bomelia

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292151,00.html

I read this stuff and am left with a mild sense of angst. I suppose it is happening on both sides of the aisle, but I believe more so on the Democratic side. YouTube debates, Move on debates, Daily Kos debates. What is this? Could the Presidency one day be held by a group of people? Same for the Senate and the House?

Recently I was reminded that the right to vote is not a right at all. It is left to the states to decide who can and cannot vote. In my state, you have to show a picture ID. Used to be that only landowners could vote. I like that. Vested, informed, interested. That would really screw up the Blue states, wouldn't it? I would love to see a map showing Blue/Red overlayed with owner/non-owner (land/house, etc).

Are these two thoughts (above 2 paragraphs) related? I think so.

Mike

Mike,

I recently saw a transcript of Demo candidates speaking to an organized labor gathering. I think labor does not trust Clinton regarding her coziness with corporate interests. Remember NAFTA and Bill. The world is continuously being divided into those who work and those that just ride free, many now living on huge corporate dividends counted with uncalloused hands, passed generation to generation.

Now, in all fairness, I have some minor stocks too... but my little monopoly house doesn't hold up too well to the mega-hotel Boardwalk bunch. I'm almost afraid to go around Go. Lately more than ever, I have this feeling they want it all, last man (group?) left standing. So it looks to me like, yes, a very small group will eventually run things, the result of years of strictly banding together for power. I hope the vast middle class, the working class, wins, or at least holds it's own, for your and my kids sake. That's really what America is... your and my kids, all our kids... isn't it? Aren't we all here the working class, the ones with relatively meager assets but a wealth of calluses?

I think a map showing Blue/Red overlayed with owner/non-owner would not reveal much in itself. Almost all US land is owned. In the event that the political type of owner were to somehow be distinguished, don't forget that much of America is being sold to foreign interests these days. Not blue, not red. Sad state of affairs.

Originally Posted by bomelia

"Are these two thoughts (above 2 paragraphs) related? I think so."

Mike

Guess they are related in my view. I have a fear that a small group of owners will dictate everything. If that's what you meant.

...

[J. T. Toad]

Corporate Dividends? where? please let me know, I would get on that wagon.

If you really meant corporate salaries, I couldn't agree more. But I find it tough to argue a mega million salary reform for an individual responsible for the employment of many, when mega million SPORTS mutants are met with adoration and additional endorsements.

There isn't a facet of population which doesn't bear responsibility for today's state of affairs. Except me of course

on a radical note, very little land is owned. Recent law changes in eminent domain for private (profit) (ultimately tax revenue) proves how little regard the law has for private ownership. An additional example is to not pay your property tax and see how long you own your property. When the 'public' is impacted by the individual, the public has carte blanch.

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

I've read your little class dividing diatribes before but this one really takes the cake. Let me put it in perspective. I grew up in a two room apartment above a bar in one of the worst sections of Kansas City. My Dad, a uneducated Okie farm boy who chopped cotton for a dollar a day, my Mom, my brother and sister and I lived and slept in those two rooms. My Dad was one of the original founders of the Grain Millers Union here in KC. My Mom was a steward for the machinists. My father in law was the International President of a construction union. My son is currently a union electrician. So it's safe to say I have a pretty solid union background. My mom and dad and we kids worked hard to get all three of us through college. In fact all of us have MBA's. I got mine on the GI bill when I got home by working a full time job and going to school at night. While the union guys were *****ing about working 8 hours I was working 12 to 14 hours, traveling away from home and continuing to better my skills. So the three of us now have a pretty good chunk of money. And I don't apologize one bit for what I've worked so hard for. The unions were very necessary in the first half of the last century but soon they began to abuse their power. High wages for doing substandard work that eventually put the auto, steel, and other industries into such a non-competetive position that now they're hurting for a job let alone a good paying one. I see the electricians union heads doing nothing but feathering their own nests while they let the guys doing the work suffer. They fight to keep guys who have failed drug test after drug test on the job endangering everyone who works with them. Meanwhile the good workers sit on the books or have to go to other cities to get work. 60% of the work in KC is now done by non-union companies and it's the union's fault for having the standards of trailer park trash.

Maybe you need to work a little harder instead of blaming everyone else because I see none of the problems that you cry wolf about. Nowhere in the world can a person better himself as he can in the good ole USA. Try it. You'll be surprised.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by BeanCounter

Wes,

I've read your little class dividing diatribes before but this one really takes the cake. Let me put it in perspective. I grew up in a two room apartment above a bar in one of the worst sections of Kansas City. My Dad, a uneducated Okie farm boy who chopped cotton for a dollar a day, my Mom, my brother and sister and I lived and slept in those two rooms. My Dad was one of the original founders of the Grain Millers Union here in KC. My Mom was a steward for the machinists. My father in law was the International President of a construction union. My son is currently a union electrician. So it's safe to say I have a pretty solid union background. My mom and dad and we kids worked hard to get all three of us through college. In fact all of us have MBA's. I got mine on the GI bill when I got home by working a full time job and going to school at night. While the union guys were *****ing about working 8 hours I was working 12 to 14 hours, traveling away from home and continuing to better my skills. So the three of us now have a pretty good chunk of money. And I don't apologize one bit for what I've worked so hard for. The unions were very necessary in the first half of the last century but soon they began to abuse their power. High wages for doing substandard work that eventually put the auto, steel, and other industries into such a non-competetive position that now they're hurting for a job let alone a good paying one. I see the electricians union heads doing nothing but feathering their own nests while they let the guys doing the work suffer. They fight to keep guys who have failed drug test after drug test on the job endangering everyone who works with them. Meanwhile the good workers sit on the books or have to go to other cities to get work. 60% of the work in KC is now done by non-union companies and it's the union's fault for having the standards of trailer park trash.

Maybe you need to work a little harder instead of blaming everyone else because I see none of the problems that you cry wolf about. Nowhere in the world can a person better himself as he can in the good ole USA. Try it. You'll be surprised.

Bernie,

I just got back from work and now I have three days off, the week-end no less.
I'm leaving to visit my son in Minneapolis whom I have time to see a couple times a year.

This was a short week with only 65 hours and 10 minutes. The norm is about 72 hours if we get our days off and about 108 hours if we don't. Before you think that I got a lot of overtime $, I should mention, no, the pay structure is such that there is rarely overtime, 99.9% of it being straight-time. A lot of things have changed since the hayday of union power. I didn't jump on the union bandwagon until 1990.
A half sunk boat by then.

I'm sure your folks worked hard even though they were union... and most (but not all) of us do today. The wolf is back at our middleclass door. Seems like whoever has power abuses it. I'd like to ask you to look very carefully at what corporate America is currently doing to increase the profit margin, including NAFTA type policies. And ask yourself if it's all good for America; good for your grandchildren. You can blame whoever you like for forcing America into this position, I don't know if fault matters anymore. Don't forget your roots and how your folks could eventually afford to help. Hard work often means very little without a little organizational clout. It's always been that way.

Then I'd like to ask you to reconsider your position on what we need to do about it. I'm all for a little political moderation. Somewhere out there is a middle ground where everyone in the USA stays healthy. America, land of the free... and fair.

Thanks for your support, whatever it may be.


...

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

A profitable corporation means jobs. An unprofitable corporation means layoffs. I don't see you employing thousands of people. I don't see you sharing the loss when your company doesn't make any money. It's in your best interests if a corporation stays healthy and employs people. It seems that unions today no longer understand that. They strangled the corporations until they finally disappeared (ie the steel industry). Sure there are some abuses.....whatever happened to the usury laws so that these payday loan places can't charge 400% interest (of course what idiot would go there but obviously some do). I also don't agree with the mega-millions that some CEO's are receiving now, but then I don't agree with what athletes make either. But once again I reiterate that no matter what, the USA is the best place in the world for opportunity regardless of race or class.

Of course if you really like taxes and cradle to grave breast feeding then Sweden is the ideal place.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by BeanCounter

Wes,

A profitable corporation means jobs. An unprofitable corporation means layoffs. I don't see you employing thousands of people. I don't see you sharing the loss when your company doesn't make any money. It's in your best interests if a corporation stays healthy and employs people. It seems that unions today no longer understand that. They strangled the corporations until they finally disappeared (ie the steel industry). Sure there are some abuses.....whatever happened to the usury laws so that these payday loan places can't charge 400% interest (of course what idiot would go there but obviously some do). I also don't agree with the mega-millions that some CEO's are receiving now, but then I don't agree with what athletes make either. But once again I reiterate that no matter what, the USA is the best place in the world for opportunity regardless of race or class.

Of course if you really like taxes and cradle to grave breast feeding then Sweden is the ideal place.

Bernie,

I think we're not so far apart here. I "get it" in spite of what you may suppose.

A profitable corporation means jobs. An unprofitable corporation means layoffs. I don't see you employing thousands of people.
Very true, Bernie. I suppose no one single person normally employs 1000's but most of us do "assist" in that we have some stock. Unfortunately we are often funding jobs in China lately due to some foolhardy longterm thinking. Maybe they'll finally be able buy our goods when our (yours and my) wages match theirs. This is my main point in referencing middle working-class erosion. Us companies can pay as well as European or Japanese and still compete, as long as all abide by the same limitations on even ground. We can simply avoid or tax importing goods produced by slave-wages.

I don't see you sharing the loss when your company doesn't make any money. It's in your best interests if a corporation stays healthy and employs people.
Actually, I now receive a bonus, through profit sharing, when my company makes money. Although I gave up some wage increase, I like the trade-off and would like to see the CEO on down tied to the same reasonable percentage of wage. Of course I stand to lose money when the economy takes a dump, but oh well, I've been to the self-employment mountain before. Not sure about all my union cohorts.

It seems that unions today no longer understand that. They strangled the corporations until they finally disappeared (ie the steel industry).
I think they understand now for the most part. On my personal behalf, I've both had a dozen employees as a self-proprietor and also worked in low end corporate management. My point, here and now, is that the scale has finally tipped too far the other way. I can see from my fence-post that whoever has the power seems to abuse it and we could use a little balance in favor of the US middleclass again. The investors didn't get strangled so much as they moved or bought offshore towards easier profits. I'd like to remove a little of the "easy". How will we fight the next war without industry on our own soil? Imported bullets, etc?

But once again I reiterate that no matter what, the USA is the best place in the world for opportunity regardless of race or class.
I wholeheartedly agree. So do millions of illegal immigrants.... and US non-patriots that hire them.

Of course if you really like taxes and cradle to grave breast feeding then Sweden is the ideal place.
No thanks. My nipples are already sore from breast feeding the idle rich and idle poor as it is...
...since I still maintain that actual workers provide all the milk (wealth?). There is no such thing as free lunch. Somebody pays. Err... lactates...

A point of interest are the recent threads concerning affordable housing and the collapsing financial market. One suggestion, that my wife heard on the radio, was that we could just convert surplus steel shipping containers to cheap housing. They sell used for $500-2000 on ebay and they are bullet-proof. The alarming thing is that we don't send most empties back because of the huge trade imbalance. I wonder how long we can afford to do this.
Sounds like an anti-middleclass economy built on quicksand. And you and I are standing on it too. Any further thoughts?


...

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

Maybe it's your terminology. I'm getting ready to retire soon. I've got a pretty good chunk of change compared to most retirees so I'll live fairly well as "one of the idle rich". I worked hard and put money away so that I could do that and not depend on the charity of my kids or strangers. Why should I be penalized because the others did not do the same. And contrary to some opinions not everyone is equal. Some make more than others for a variety of different reasons.

As far as the housing collapse, it's about time. People went out and took out absolutely stupid loans betting on the come. Well sometimes it just doesn't come. I know that from going bankrupt when I was 40. When you lose you lose so stop the crying and expecting everyone else to bail you out. You just go back to work and try to make it back.

As far as taxing the imports I've only got one thing to say. There wouldn't be any imports if the so called middle class didn't buy every stinking thing they send over from China. How about passing a law that they can't shop at WalMart. You'd have a general uprising of callused hands. Most people are the victims of their own stupidity and then expect everyone else to bail them out.

[Jamo]

Wes, with all due respect, I gotta call bullsh!t on most of your statements.

Working that many hours without overtime, and then you talk about how good unions are? If your union is so good, they would have already solved that issue via the DOL or a grievance. Actually, I find your statement extremely hard to believe.

And unions now understand about running companies out of business? Again...total BS. Explain Delphi, GM, Ford... I can run down a list by the hundreds of companies that have been ripped apart and left for dead by unions..

Unions can't even agree on what's good anymore...note the largest ones leaving the old political bosses at the AFL-CIO: SEIU, Unite, UFCW, Teamsters and a few others. What's the fight about? Money. The interest of the workers mean little.

Card Check legislation...you don't even want folks to have the right to vote anymore. Instead...use peer pressure and hand folks a pen to sign up while the union organizers watch, or suffer the consequences. Karl Marx would love it.

Unions basically suck...the industries that are taking us into the future are the non-unionized ones. May they stay that way forever.

Course, that's just my opinion.

[Roscoe]

One would be surprised to learn that the percentage of the workforce that is still unionized is only about 12%.

While unions, dispite infiltration by Communists and da mob, might have served some purpose in the first half of the 20th century but certainly serve no purpose for the workers today.


Roscoe

[VRM]

Roscoe, I have to disagree with you.
In most cases the unions have lost their original raison d'etre, and they now suck the life out of companies and workers. However, when I was at the phone company there were two unions I had to deal with on a regular basis; the IBEW and the CWA. The pole climbers and switch techs are all IBEW, and things are really cushy for them. I used to see a lot of them sitting around playing cards. It was also IBEW guys who threw horse manure on the steps of the Providence RI building where I was running the 411 system 20 hours a day. Fortunately, I had a friend who let me go in the ATT entrance, but all the NET people had to go through the manure. I have no fondness for them.

However, the ladies who work the phones on the 411 systems are all monitored every second that they work. They can be yelled at for taking bathroom breaks that are too long. Their coffee breaks lasted exactly 13 minutes. If they don't process x number of calls per minute they would get a performance review. They also did not make much money, but the benefits were really good. Most of them were single moms or older women who needed some extra income. Most did not have any kind of education. They went on strike for almost 4 months to get 2 minutes added to their break times and to avoid the medical copay. The strike was mostly for the IBEW people, but the CWA could not cross lines if the IBEW votes to stay out. When the strike was over the IBEW guys soaked up a couple of months of overtime getting caught up on work, but the operators had none of that. A lot of them were very pissed off at their union after that for keeping them out for so long. Still, they realised that as long as you did your job properly the union would go to bat for them if they ever had a situation that called for extended sick time or something like that.

I think that their union could do better for them, but in their case it is probably better than nothing.

Personally, I would never join a union - it is too much like socialism that protects the idiots and squashes the good employees. But in a situation like the one I mention where everyone is expected to perform to exactly the same standard than there is a valid reason for one.

Steve

[Roscoe]

You cannot debate seriously with anecdotes.

However, I think we do agree in general.

Roscoe