Israelis Bomb Nuke Site???

[VRM]

Bernie,
Yes, the Arabs do go looking to kill anyone. Not just civilians. They have stated that they would prefer a pure military target, but because of the policies of the IDF they feel that anything Israeli is fair game. Personally, I find their attitude despicable and stupid. If they really want to win they need to get America on their side. They will never do it with the tactics they are using now. What they need to do is have a wealthy country sponsor a media blitz showing exactly what Israel does, and has done. The US is only hearing one side of the story.
You said that there are "undoubtedly some instances of murder". You also said "Now they themselves at times pushed the limits of terrorism". Quit being an apologist for Israel and call a spade a spade. Israelis have performed terrorist acts and murdered innocent people, including a lot of kids. The Israeli government admits that these sort of acts are a crime, but they almost never do anything about it.

My solution to this problem would be:
Create the Palestinian state using the borders as defined by the UN. Palestine and Israel then recognise each other. Put UN troops in quantity there for about 10 years. Build a road for the Palestinians, with a wall on either side, and build an armoured tunnel for the Israelis. UN troops patrol both.
When the UN troops leave, then both countries can take the gloves off if they still need to, provided that Israel adheres to the Geneva Conventions regarding land aquisition. Israel has nukes (and they should publicly say so) - they will never be pushed into the sea.

Both sides have valid points, both sides have also acted badly. The only way to fix this problem is to be able to look at this mess objectively. Denying the crap that Israel has done, whilst playing up that of the Arabs will not solve the problem. In fact, it makes it worse.

Steve

[BeanCounter]

Uh Steve, are you a recent immigrant? If so please learn to speak and understand the language. Where is there an apology in

"undoubtedly some instances of murder".

"Now they themselves at times pushed the limits of terrorism"

Sheesh!

Oh and Ed, half my ancestors still live in Kippenheimweiler, Germany. I'm hardly a Zionist. I just believe the Israeli's have as much or more claim to the land than the Palestinians. The only ones with a better claim are the Canaanites.

[REAL 1]

VRM, You want to call a spade? You want to talk about acts of terrorism on the Israeli side? Go right ahead, I'd love to hear what facts you want to site. Provide references not just the line from Hamas or Hezzbolah. They have 0 credibilty.


Please tell us what Israel does and has done? I'd love to be enlightened.

Does Israel want to pursue the road map to peace? Yes.

Has Israel offered 99% of everything the Palestinians demanded only to be rejected and faced with another "infatada"? Yes.

Has Israel moved to turn over land to the Palestinians? Yes. (The Gaza)

Has Israel been repaid for this gesture toward peace? Yes, with missles.

Has Israel adopted a policy of the destruction of the Palestinian? No.

Does Israel have a policy of targeting women and children? No.

Has Israel indicated a willingness to return to peace talks if acts of terrorism stop? Yes.

Has Israel shown tremendous restraint in not obliterating the Palestinians in the face of non stop terrorist attacks on its citizens which have maimed and killed thousands which in proportion to our population is the equivilent of 10s of thousands of people. Yes. Would you expect our government or any other government to exercise such restraint if the shoe where on our foot? No. If this were happening in your backyard would you want your government to act aggressively to kill those responsible. Yes (if you have a brain).

Has Israel constantly being provoked by terrorist acts targeting hospitals, schools, restaurants etc.. even on holidays? Yes.

Does Israel teach its children to hate palestinians and kill them whenever possilbe from K1 on up. No. Do the palestinians have such an education program? Yes.

Does Hamas and Hezzbolah have a policy of tolerance toward jews and Israel? No.

Does Hamas (which now controls the palestinian parliment) have a policy and charter calling for the destruction of Israel. Yes. Does Israel have a reciprocal policy? No.

Has the world community asked Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist? Yes. What was Hamas' response? No.

The jews and the Israelis want peace. Hamas and Hezzbolah want the destruction of Israel along with their sponsor states Iran and Syria.

Your suggestion as how to handle the situation is inane and ridiculous. You also must be blind. Where is the world wide condemnation of the homocide bombers? Where is the world wide condemnation of Hamas, Hezzbolah? No, there is very little. What you constantly see is the press, human rights groups and the liberal constantly playing up any collateral damage and death when the Isreali retaliate. If the human rights groups want to condemn anything and stop the bloodshed they need to have a "media blitz" condemning the homocide bombers and terrorists who are responsible for not only the failure of the peace process but deaths on both sides. Anyone who can't figure this out is an idiot.

You want peace? Then you need to drill it through the palestians heads, the Iranian's head, Hezzbolah's head, the Syrian's heads that Israel is not going anywhere. If they want peace then they need to stop acting like animals, accept the Israeli state and work toward a palestian state which can live side by side with Israel. Stop teaching kindergarders to hate jews, kill jews and be a martyr for the destruction of Israel.

Israel is looking to be left alone and live in peace. They are not seeking to conquer or colonize anything contrary to the antisemetic and anti"Zionist" propaganda bullchit. If they wanted to colonize they wouldn't have return land to Eygpt and would not have turned the Gaza over.

If the Palestinians had a brain they would have had a country after the Camp David accords but they have shown they can't even govern themselves as shown in Gaza and spend more time bringing weopons in to attack Israel with then working toward moving forward as a self governing people looking to join the world community.

Wake up and open your eyes and stop with the bullchit sweeping allegations having no basis in fact. You sound like Amadinajad.

[bomelia]

Did anybody see that news article about the Israelis going in and grabbing evidence BEFORE the bombing raid?

We can argue endlessly on this issue (and we do). I have sensed no one moving off of their point. But I do get a good education in here. The fact is, Israel is not going anywhere. What's done is done. Of course, should Iran, Syria, et al get nuclear weapons (and one day they will), everything could change. Actually and ironically, it could create peace. Surely everybody understands implicitely that should Israel get attacked with nuclear weapons, the whole region would be destroyed in a counter attack. That has got to give pause to even the wackiest of the terror types. Heck, the US might even join the party.

Mike

[Ron61]

Mike,

I saw that and also read this.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_r...s__well_w.html

Ron

[CobraEd]

Its amazing how they they state that they will wipe Syria off the map. If we did not provide them with EVERYTING, they would not be in a position to do anything. They would still be living in tents on the desert floor with swords for weapons. What the hell did we create?

.

[Roscoe]

Your kidding right?

Let's take a look at Nobel Prize winners, medical breakthroughs and patents compared to any country in the middle east.

If it wasn't for oil the A-Rabs would still be Bedouins in tents with camels and swords and eating with the correct hand.

Roscoe

[rdorman]

Israel and Palenstine.... look at it this way, what would the United State do if Mexico claimed California as its own and lobbed missiles over the border

[REAL 1]

Ed. You can't be that ignorant. Seriously.

Sounds like you wish they were in a defensless position. Hmmm. I wonder what your reaction would be if a scud missile found its way to your backyard killed your kids, dog, wife and neighbors. What would your reaction be Ed.

You can't be for real.



Roscoe nails it once again. Hoorah!

[VRM]

Originally Posted by rdorman

Israel and Palenstine.... look at it this way, what would the United State do if Mexico claimed California as its own and lobbed missiles over the border

Probably the same thing we would do if the UN declared that Ohio was going to be the new homeland for refugee Martians.

Steve

[rdorman]

Do they come in peace?

[VRM]

Originally Posted by rdorman

Do they come in peace?

Ooooo...Touche on that one!

Steve

[Buzz]

Do they come in peace?

Or do they go in pieces?

[rdorman]

And, did they come to repopulate the species or work in the 7-11's. How does one say 'Paper or plastic' in Martian? If they work in the fields picking crops, that could be a bonus as well. I bet they settle in Youngstown.

[bomelia]

Here is what the Iranians (ok, Persians, not Arabs, but for me it is a very fine distinction) can do so well. (graphic!! do not look if you are easily disturbed)

Mike

[rdorman]

No wonder their 'President' says that they don't have the homosexual 'phenomenon' in Iran. Maybe they all fled to Iraq?

[392cobra]

More Good News.


SILENCE IN SYRIA, PANIC IN IRAN

Dr. Jack Wheeler

One of India's top ranking generals assigned to liaise with the Iranian military recently returned to New Delhi from several days in Tehran - in a state of complete amazement.

"Everyone in the government and military can only talk of one thing," he reports. "No matter who I talked to, all they could do was ask me, over and over again, 'Do you think the Americans will attack us?' 'When will the Americans attack us?' 'Will the Americans attack us in a joint operation with the Israelis?' How massive will the attack be?' on and on, endlessly. The Iranians are in a state of total panic."

And that was before September 6. Since then, it's panic-squared in Tehran. The mullahs are freaking out in fear. Why? Because of the silence in Syria.

On September 6, Israeli Air Force F-15 and F-16s conducted a devastating attack on targets deep inside Syria near the city of Dayr AZ-Zawr. Israel's military censors have muzzled the Israeli media, enforcing an extraordinary silence about the identity of the targets. Massive speculation in the world press has followed, such as Brett Stephens' Osirak II? in yesterday's (9/18) Wall St. Journal.

Stephens and most everyone else have missed the real story. It is not Israel's silence that "speaks volumes" as he claims, but Syria's. Why would the Syrian government be so tight-lipped about an act of war perpetrated on their soil?

The first half of the answer lies in this story that appeared in the Israeli media last month (8/13): Syria's Antiaircraft System Most Advanced In World. Syria has gone on a profligate buying spree, spending vast sums on Russian systems, "considered the cutting edge in aircraft interception technology."

Syria now "possesses the most crowded antiaircraft system in the world," with "more than 200 antiaircraft batteries of different types," some of which are so new that they have been installed in Syria "before being introduced into Russian operation service."

While you're digesting that, take a look at the map of Syria: Notice how far away Dayr AZ-Zawr is from Israel. An F15/16 attack there is not a tiptoe across the border, but a deep, deep penetration of Syrian airspace. And guess what happened with the Russian super-hyper-sophisticated cutting edge antiaircraft missile batteries when that penetration took place on September 6th.

Nothing.

El blanko. Silence. The systems didn't even light up, gave no indication whatever of any detection of enemy aircraft invading Syrian airspace, zip, zero, nada. The Israelis (with a little techie assistance from us) blinded the Russkie antiaircraft systems so completely the Syrians didn't even know they were blinded.

Now you see why the Syrians have been scared speechless. They thought they were protected - at enormous expense - only to discover they are defenseless. As in naked.

Thus the Great Iranian Freak-Out - for this means Iran is just as nakedly defenseless as Syria. I can tell you that there are a lot of folks in the Kirya (IDF headquarters in Tel Aviv) and the Pentagon right now who are really enjoying the mullahs' predicament. Let's face it: scaring the terror masters in Tehran out of their wits is fun.

It's so much fun, in fact, that an attack destroying Iran's nuclear facilities and the Revolutionary Guard command/control centers has been delayed, so that France (under new management) can get in on the fun too.

On Sunday (9/16), Sarkozy's foreign minister Bernard Kouchner announced that "France should prepare for the possibility of war over Iran's nuclear program."

All of this has caused Tehran to respond with maniacal threats. On Monday (9/17), a government website proclaimed that "600 Shihab-3 missiles" will be fired at targets in Israel in response to an attack upon Iran by the US/Israel. This was followed by Iranian deputy air force chief Gen. Mohammad Alavi announcing today (9/19) that "we will attack their (Israeli) territory with our fighter bombers as a response to any attack."

A sure sign of panic is to make a threat that everyone knows is a bluff. So our and Tel Aviv's response to Iranian bluster is a thank-you-for-sharing yawn and a laugh. Few things rattle the mullahs' cages more than a yawn and a laugh.

Yet no matter how much fun this sport with the mullahs is, it is also deadly serious. The pressure build-up on Iran is getting enormous. Something is going to blow and soon. The hope is that the blow-up will be internal, that the regime will implode from within.

But make no mistake: an all-out full regime take-out air assault upon Iran is coming if that hope doesn't materialize within the next 60 to 90 days. The Sept. 6 attack on Syria was the shot across Iran's bow.

So - what was attacked near Dayr az-Zawr? It's possible it was North Korean "nuclear material" recently shipped to Syria, i.e., stuff to make radioactively "dirty" warheads, but nothing to make a real nuke with as the Norks don't have real nukes (see Why North Korea's Nuke Test Is Such Good News, October 2006).

Another possibility is it was to take out a stockpile of long-range Zilzal surface-to-surface missiles recently shipped from Iran for an attack on Israel.

A third is it was a hit on the stockpile of Saddam's chemical/bio weapons snuck out of Iraq and into Syria for safekeeping before the US invasion of April 2003.

But the identity of the target is not the story - for the primary point of the attack was not to destroy that target. It was to shut down Syria's Russian air defense system during the attack. Doing so made the attack an incredible success.

Syria is shamed and silent. Iran is freaking out in panic. Defenseless enemies are fun.

[REAL 1]

First, the Mexicans have claimed rights to southern California in the past.

Second, once again VRMs analogy is "lightyears off" from begin applicable. Maritans never inhabited, controlled and had a country in Ohio.

The Israelis did inhabit what is Israel dating back to before Christ and before Islam, there was an ancient country called Israel run and controlled by the jews for thousands of years. The terriority was offered to be divided and shared after WWII by the UN and the controlling power, Great Britain. The arabs turned the offer down. They therefore lost out. Another great move by the arabs.

Hopefully VRM will never let himself get confused by the facts.

Nice try.

392Cobra: Great post! Its nice to know the Mullah's asses are showing under their skirts and exposed. Its about time "we pop a cap in their ass". We/Israel better strike first before they do. They only understand one thing, a bloody nose.

If its a joint operation with Britain, France, Israel and the US there done. Someones got to stop/kill the evil.

[VRM]

Evan,
First off, Uganda was NOT my idea as you seem to think. You might want to rethink which one of us knows squat about history. That idea was presented to Herzl about 100 years ago. Uganda was also relatively empty back then, unlike Palestine, which was the most densely populated area in the ME. There was also talk of offering a part of Bavaria where there had been a large Jewish community before WW2. Both options were turned down because the Jews only wanted Palestine. So they didn’t want just ANY homeland – they had to have an area already lived on by someone else.

Here is some more history off the top of my head. Please pardon any misspellings, as I am by no means an expert in Semitic languages (Hebrew, Arabic, and so on). I also estimate some dates as I might not remember the exact year, but I wanted to get close enough for you to look them up if you doubt me (of course you do, cause you think Israels poo don't stink - take a good whiff). There is a lot more that I have read about and could look up if I really felt like it. These were the easy ones for me to remember. I could also pull up some Arab ones, but I think we agree on most of that.

Massacre at Kibya. Early 1950s – Arabs houses destroyed, most villagers killed. This one got a full condemnation by the UN, and the US actually suspended financial support. One of the units that was part of this operation was commanded by Ariel Sharon.

King David Hotel. Mid 40s('46?). Jews dressed as Arabs bombed the hotel killing a bunch of British staff, along with some innocent bystanders, including Jews. Menacham Begin was the one that ordered the attack.

Count Bernadotte assassinated. 1948 – Sweedish diplomat trying to figure out a peace plan. Yitzahk Shamir was one of the people who ordered the murder. Do you notice a pattern with some top Israeli officials?

By the way - did you know that one Jewish terrorist group (Lehi) contacted the Nazis and tried to work with them to remove Jews from Germany in exchange for help throwing out the British? Yitzhak Shamir was a member of that same terrorist group, and one of their founding principles was “The Fate of the Aliens. Solve the problem of alien population by exchange of population”. I did look this one up to get the exact tenet of Lehi. Some of the other principles are worth a read as well. http://www.mepc.org/journal_shahak/shahak39.asp. Oh, and this is written by a Jew (shame on that anti-Semitic SOB for disputing Evan Almighty! ).

Dier Yassin massacre. 1948 – caused more Arab countries to join fighting against Israel. Maybe you believe the propaganda published by Israel in the early 70s saying that this event never happened. People often try to erase the memory of their crimes – Israel is no different in this regard. Israel had a few power plays go on internally because of this published propaganda.

Lavon affair. mid 50s – Israel deliberately targeted American and British targets in an attempt to convince them not to leave the Suez.

Maybe you need something a little more recent…

Shabra and Shatila massacres. Early 1980s. 2000 or so Palestinians are killed by Christian allies of Israel. Israeli forces prevent any refugee from leaving the killing area, nor do they prevent the massacre. Ariel Sharon loses his job over this (Defense Minister, IIRC), but we know he gets a better one later.

Goldstein massacre 1990s Goldstein killed 20-30 Muslims while they were praying. He was also a member of yet another Jewish terrorist organisation, but I cannot remember the name.

There is also the case of Private Zada from just a couple of years ago. He killed 4 or 5 Arabs on a bus. What was interesting about this case was the fact that the Israeli government denied reparations to the victims because reparations are only given if it is a foreign terrorist. He was Israeli, so they were not allowed under law to get reparations as an Israeli could not then be defined as a terrorist.

Today Israel sometimes shoots at random into refugee camps. Sometimes they do shoot at legit targets, other times they do not. Thus we sometimes end up with Arab kids with 2 and 3 rounds to the head. This is against official policy, but Israeli officials almost never do anything about it. Even though Israel sometimes admits that the military force used may be excessive, or misdirected, they are always given the benefit of the doubt. If any Arab group does exactly the same thing it is assumed that they did it deliberately.

As far as I am concerned both sides are guilty of violence, stupidity, savagery terrorism, racism, and a variety of other things. All sides are trying to get what they want at the expense of some other group, and those other groups resent it.

Contrary to what you might think I don’t hate Jews or Israelis, though a lesser man might be tempted to do so after reading your rants. I don’t even have a problem with Israel limiting the number of non-Jews living there (they do), provided that they acknowledge that they are doing it (they don’t). Right or wrong, the land was granted to them by the UN, and they can do what they like with it. If they need to restrict citizenship to only Jews in order to maintain their population majority, that is their right, but if they discriminate against others in order to do it, that makes them racist.

Of course, we can always look at some of the more radical Israelis actions I mention above and judge ALL Israelis to be radical. The Israelis did, after all, elect racist terrorists to their highest public offices, just like some Arab/Muslim countries have done.

I have no interest in supporting a racist nation of any flavour, Arab or Israeli. If you do, maybe you should move there.

Steve

[Roscoe]

Here's why they have no homosexuals in Iran:



http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,2396,00.html