Israelis Bomb Nuke Site??? - Page 7

VRM · #**121** (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 01:14 PM

Roscoe,
No, I don't expect Hussein to give them a roadmap of where to look. That's why the US pushed for the term 'unlimited access' in the UN docs (and got it), AND it was why the US was giving information to the on-the-ground inspectors in real time as to where to go. And they STILL didn't find anything.

Oh, and if I were to quote Move-On as a news source would you have a problem with it? World Net Daily is just as biased. They are the same idiots that think that soy is making kids gay.

Steve

bomelia · #**122** (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRM

Bernie,
I think ALL politicians are crooked liars! I have no love for the DNC either. There may be one or two politicians worth saving, but I don't know who they are...
Bush lied about why we invaded Iraq. Nuclear material is very regulated. It would be tough to take any of ours and say it was theirs. Besides, that stuff is pretty easy to figure out the place of origin. We even have a group (created by Bush) whose purpose is to figure out who made nuclear material even after it has exploded (obviously a lot tougher, but apparently still possible). All it would take is one person to spill the beans about us planting evidence - or an independent investigation - and we would look even worse than we do now.

This is another reason why the invasion was a bad idea. When (if) Hussein had WMD, then we could be pretty certain that they would only be used under certain circumstances. Hussein was a very known and relatively easily predictable personality. If any WMD were transported out if Iraq they are now in the hands of people who are probably a lot less predictable. And, they will be a lot harder to find.

Steve

If Bush lied, then he should face impeachment. But nobody has EVER proved that. You don't get a pass to say anything that you want to say. Normally, you back up your stuff with facts. "Bush lied" is a democrat mantra...nothing more. More and more you reveal yourself with statements like that.

And, if you indeed think all politicians are crooked liars, and you vote for any of them, then what does that say about you? Or do you simply not vote? Don't equivocate here...

Mike

392cobra · #**123** (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRM

soy is making kids gay.

Steve

Besides it being Yuppie $hit,I knew there was a good reason to keep it out of my house.Thanks.

VRM · #**124** (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 03:47 PM

Mike,

"The larger point is, and the fundamental question is, did Saddam Hussein have a weapons program? And the answer is, absolutely. And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in. And, therefore, after a reasonable request, we decided to remove him from power, along with other nations, so as to make sure he was not a threat to the United States and our friends and allies in the region."

Hussein did let the inspectors in. Bush says he did not. Ergo...

I tend to vote for the GOP more than I vote for the DNC. I vote for Libertarians or Realists more than I vote for either the GOP or DNC. Problem is - some of them are nuts - but frequently those nuts are smarter than the idiots in either the GOP or the DNC. The small parties also have the added benefit of not (yet) being corrupted by big time politics. I also rarely vote for the guy who actually wins.

Steve

rdorman · #**125** (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 07:05 AM

The inspectors themselves reported that Saddam blocked and or hindered inpection attempts on dozens of occasions even going so far as to label them as spies and refusing access. Iraqs WMD program was greatly diminished in the 90's by somewhat successful programs but even on return this century inpectors reported finding dozens of weapons programs, just not the weapon themselves. Recently declassified NGIC report shows the discovery of approx 500 munitions that contain Mustard and Sarin nerve agents in a period from May '04 until June '06. There is a significant gap between what Iraq reported having, what UNSCOM was able to verify and what was destroyed. So, where did all those munitions go? Of course, I have already answered that question.

Either way, right or wrong, we are there and the Iraqi's need to get their $hit together and make their country work. I have no desire to stay in Iraq one day longer then we have to. I wish we where out already.

REAL 1 · #**126** (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 02:33 PM

I'd rather go in and kick the Chit out of him and find out he had nothing then not kick the chit out of him and find out he did and then its too late.

He actually sent all his WMD to Syria. We'll find this to be true one day.

VRM · #**127** (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 09:09 AM

I disagree with the concept of Hussein sending any weapons to Iran or Syria. Iran and Syria both work together, but Hussein did not trust them. Hussein was a survivalist - he thought he had a good chance of getting through the invasion. It is not in his best interests to send off weapons of any kind to a country that was not friendly to him. In fact, Husseins biggest threat was Iran. We actually made Iran very happy because we removed that threat.
Hussein was not developing nuclear weapons. There were chemical weapons containers found, but all the chemical weapons had long expired, and were of no harm to anyone.
The Iraq Survey Group report also indicates that there is no evidence that any weapons were shipped to any other country. This report was created by people who work with evidence to reach conclusions, rather than gut feelings like our President does.

You guys are also forgetting one very important thing. The best quality chemical weapons only have a shelf life of 4-5 years. Any chemical weapons that were made brand new right before the invasion would turning into piles of useless goo right about now, and Husseins earlier home-grown chemical weapons were not very purely refined.

Steve

rdorman · #**128** (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 09:14 AM

We know you don't buy into the concept Steve, that is OK. Some day you will find out that it is true... or I will be very suprised

VRM · #**129** (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 09:24 AM

So what types of weapons do you think were moved to Syria?

Steve

rdorman · #**130** (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 10:55 AM

I doubt that any one knows the exact list that was moved. Not only weapons but raw materials for chemical, biologic and even some nuclear materials. There is much speculation that Moscow organized the whole move to cover up its involvement in Iraq's WMD program after the inspectors pulled out in the 90's. There is also speculation that Prime Minister Rafik Hariri assasination was a result of his discovery of WMD's in his country from Iraq. I doubt we will ever know for sure but there is a bunch of evidence and all leads to the conclusion that 'stuff' was moved across the boarder. Little hard facts, but there is some (such as satelite photos).

REAL 1 · #**131** (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 02:26 PM

VRM: I would expect you to disagree. We'll find out I was right one day.

bomelia · #**132** (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdorman

I doubt that any one knows the exact list that was moved. Not only weapons but raw materials for chemical, biologic and even some nuclear materials. There is much speculation that Moscow organized the whole move to cover up its involvement in Iraq's WMD program after the inspectors pulled out in the 90's. There is also speculation that Prime Minister Rafik Hariri assasination was a result of his discovery of WMD's in his country from Iraq. I doubt we will ever know for sure but there is a bunch of evidence and all leads to the conclusion that 'stuff' was moved across the boarder. Little hard facts, but there is some (such as satelite photos).

VERY interesting. Still waiting for the news to break. OK, next question. What would keep the administration from revealing the "find"?

Mike

rdorman · #**133** (**permalink**) 10-04-2007, 09:38 AM

Mike, there is actually quite a bit of information out there. Some just declassified. If you look back through my posts and do some searches you can find it. From inspectors, to press, to generals, to intelligence agencies. As far as 'find' is concerned... you have to go into Syria, Lebanon, etc! Saddam and his top brass knew that they where going to get their a$$ handed to them. So did the Soviets. There was never a doubt. It is safe to say that Saddam and his top folks acted, sometimes individually, in the interest of self preservation (didn't always work, just ask Saddam). Steel was flowing out of Iraq at estimated rates of 10,000 tons a month coming up before the war. Other raw materials as well (including cash). I recall one inspector talking about how there was hardly any steel left after the invasion. If I was one of them, and knew that my country was going to fall, and that the U.S. was going to hunt me down, I would be looking for friends out of country any where I can find them. Need a place to hide and big dollar bribes go a long way. I doubt any one will ever really know the entire truth... at least not for a long, long time.

bomelia · #**134** (**permalink**) 10-04-2007, 03:07 PM

Why "steel"?

Mike

VRM · #**135** (**permalink**) 10-05-2007, 08:56 AM

RDorman and Evan,
The ISG and UN inspectors reports shows no evidence of any kind of current WMD manufacture in Iraq, and no evidence that anything was moved (including sattelite photos). What evidence do you have to the contrary? They did find old (useless) chemical weapon delivery systems. They also found other conventional weapons systems that were out of spec with what was allowed. The destruction of those made significant progress before we invaded.

Hussein did not trust his neighbours (mostly Iran, but also Syria to an extent) - they were a big reason why he wanted WMD in the first place. If he wanted WMD to possibly use against his neighbours he is certainly not going to send those same WMD to them for safekeeping. And he did have access to plenty of cash, but he obviously did not trust his neighbours enough to keep him safe even with the bribe potential.

If anything does happen it will be from a different country making its own WMD. And there is a good chance that they will be making their own WMD because they already know what we do to a country that does not have WMD.

Mike,
I've been thinking about that for a few days now. I've not come up with an answer that fits perfectly, but I have a few possibilities:
1. Israel - They were making a strike (practise or real) on Iran, got detected, dropped tanks/ordnance and ran. Problem is - it is the wrong direction for Bushehr. It is not that far out of the way to get to Tehran or Natanz, though. Syrias ambassador has said that Israel hit nothing, but dropped munitions and tanks and left. Taking all sides comments (or lack thereof) into account this one seems to make the most sense to me.

2. North Korea - they may have been selling bits of their nuke program to Syria. It was hit and destroyed, and the US offered NK cash/loans/whatever to stop selling stuff to others. SIlence was part of the deal. And Syria does not want world opinion to turn more against them, so they are being quiet too.

4. US - We supplied Israel with suspected co-ordinates of a weapons/WMD cache, and those co-ordinates turned out to be wrong. We don't need any more intelligence screw-ups, so we agree (with Israel) to keep it quiet.

Steve

J. T. Toad · #**136** (**permalink**) 10-05-2007, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRM

RDorman and Evan,
The ISG and UN inspectors reports shows no evidence of any kind of current WMD manufacture in Iraq, and no evidence that anything was moved (including sattelite photos). What evidence do you have to the contrary? They did find old (useless) chemical weapon delivery systems. They also found other conventional weapons systems that were out of spec with what was allowed. The destruction of those made significant progress before we invaded.

Steve

this logic reminds me of something....

oh yeah...

"if the glove don't fit, you must acquit!"

Satellite surveillance never showed the Migs he buried/preserved/stored either. so it mustn't have happened despite the discovery otherwise. DO you prescribe to the notion that the paraphernalia is legal even though the substance isn't? He broke the rules he agreed to, regardless of the outcome, you pay the piper.

Look at it this way, a local eight year old brought a 9mm to school. He has been suspended and possible expulsion. Based on your reasoning, the school district should have done nothing, as the weapon was unloaded. Sadaam had the capability and resources to complete/generate...

oh nevermind, this isn't worth the ATP typing this out.

rdorman · #**137** (**permalink**) 10-08-2007, 07:09 AM

VRM, I understand your resistance but please read a little more carefully and do a little research. I have already posted information that with a few minutes in google, you can find the 'evidence' that you claim is lacking. From the NGIC documents recently declassified, to John Shaw of the ITS, Russian Spetsnatz, Satellite images of extensive large vehicle traffic moving across the Syrian border, Georges Sada, the list goes on and on and on and on. We know that weapons have a shelf life and even with what was destroyed or moved, the few that where left where still lethal according to the NGIC. We also know that Saddam did not trust his neighbors. Heck, the guy didn't even trust family to the point he executed a few of them. Not everything in the days leading up to the war was done with his knowledge nor permission. Besides, does any one think that Russia will give a two bit dictator a choice? I have never been in possession of any evidence of any kind. Even if I did, I would deny it

I just think if you dig a little deeper, you may be suprised what you find. Not to say it will change your mind or anything. All the intrigue before the invasion would make one heck of a spy novel!

rdorman · #**138** (**permalink**) 10-08-2007, 07:31 AM

Just one report for everyones reading enjoyment: http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/...s-2004-435.pdf

rdorman · #**139** (**permalink**) 10-08-2007, 07:45 AM

Light reading: https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/...04/addenda.pdf

The ISG conclusion back in March of '05 was that an 'official' movement of WMD before the war was 'unlikely', but it was unable to rule out unofficial movements of WMD.

bomelia · #**140** (**permalink**) 10-08-2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRM

Mike,
I've been thinking about that for a few days now. I've not come up with an answer that fits perfectly, but I have a few possibilities:
1. Israel - They were making a strike (practise or real) on Iran, got detected, dropped tanks/ordnance and ran. Problem is - it is the wrong direction for Bushehr. It is not that far out of the way to get to Tehran or Natanz, though. Syrias ambassador has said that Israel hit nothing, but dropped munitions and tanks and left. Taking all sides comments (or lack thereof) into account this one seems to make the most sense to me.

But Syria's AD went silent, so how did they detect? And, if Syria was "in the know" then that says they were assisting in the "attack" on Iran.