Union Rejects Contract

[Ron61]

Sounds like a lose, lose situation to me. The union will keep on until they shut down the plants and move everything over seas.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071019/...ysler_uaw_dc_1

Ron

[427 S/O]

Can Chrysler really afford this strike?.

[Wes Tausend]

...

Ron,

I think Chrysler is sunk anyway. The guys rowing the boat would rather sink the whole particular craft right now than give up their seats. But you are right, a new boat will take its place from overseas, no matter if the guys rowing, didn't row hard enough, or the guy at the tiller wasted their effort. The end result will be the same.

This must have been a difficult vote for the workers. Almost akin to having to vote on how to directly save a retirement plan income.

Suppose I was already retired and stuck on a fixed income. Then the plan administrators told me that the plan was somehow failing and their suggestion to save it was to either cut my benefits down to 75% along with everybody elses or only furnish 50% of benefits to any new guys retiring. It would be a difficult choice. Mostly, as a faithful "rower", I would wonder how the planners could screw up "steering".

Guess they need Lee Iacocca again. Not only a silver tongue regarding belt tightening but innovative "steering" to back it up.

Just got called to work. Called for 23:50 hours instead of the 14:30 I expected. Now I'm too tired to steer... but luckily I won't have to (track you know). Just gotta remember to stop sometimes.

Time to go row the boat, I guess.


...

[Excaliber]

Cerberus Capital Management LP just took over 80% control. New CEO and new top management.

The new management has some of the industrys TOP players on it. Among them a powerful marketing guy formerly with Toyota, Jim Press. In fact he was the first non Japanese guy to sit on the Toyota board. He was the guy responsible for the full size Toyota trucks we see today, something Toyota rejected for years until he pushed it through. He's head of marketing and research and will be cutting various models like crazy, lean mean machine coming through...

These new players are super sharp and deadly serious about turning Chrysler around. I doubt 'over shore' jobs are on the table at this point. There going to turn Chrysler into a Toyota work environment, come hell or high water. They've circled the wagons and telling the Union like it is, "Fxxc off dick heads."

The Union may well walk and I won't hold my breath Chrysler will roll over. The war has begun, my money is on Chrysler to come out of this on top. Bloodied, hurting, but they will rise from the ashes. This is the begining of the end for the Union.

[Ron61]

Ernie,

I agree with you about the unions. In most places I think they have long outlived their usefulness. Now all they are concerned about is keeping their high paying jobs and enough members to pay the dues to support them. Notice they said they couldn't approach Toyota when Toyota was paying $25 dollars per hour and they could only get $14. I have never been a union fan, but they did serve a good purpose years ago and in some industries, like mining, still do some good.

Ron

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Cerberus Capital Management LP just took over 80% control. New CEO and new top management....
...These new players are super sharp and deadly serious about turning Chrysler around. I doubt 'over shore' jobs are on the table at this point. There going to turn Chrysler into a Toyota work environment, come hell or high water. They've circled the wagons and telling the Union like it is, "Fxxc off dick heads."
The Union may well walk and I won't hold my breath Chrysler will roll over. The war has begun, my money is on Chrysler to come out of this on top. Bloodied, hurting, but they will rise from the ashes. This is the begining of the end for the Union.

Ernie,

Sorry this is so longwinded.
I don't think the union necessarily will eat it. Note this press release paragraph at:
( http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4587120&EDATE= )

================================================== ======\
"- DaimlerChrysler CEO Dieter Zetsche on the realignment of DaimlerChrysler
AG: "We will be the leading manufacturer of premium vehicles and a provider
of premium services in every market segment we serve worldwide."
- UAW President Ron Gettelfinger: "The transaction with Cerberus is in the
best interests of our UAW members, the Chrysler Group and Daimler."
- Cerberus Capital Management Chairman John Snow: "Cerberus believes in the inherent strength of U.S. manufacturing and of the U.S. auto industry. Most importantly, we believe in Chrysler."
================================================== ======\

For the record, I should state that at one point in my life I resented unions and the better (than mine) wages that were politically won. I even supported my states "Right to Work Law" and I still do to some degree.

Years ago I became an employer, in home construction, and I was determined to treat my employees fairly. I paid $6/hr starting wages in the mid 70's which was decent for my area. One contributing factor was the overheated economy (Nixon years ) that made it difficult to find and keep workers, so I imagined I would eventually have position to choose the best to keep.

I even supported one of my employees that wished to start a union in the Drywall Trade, our principle activity at the time. He was unsuccessful but I reasoned that this would allow me to have a better chance at contracts in area powerplant construction which had strong union influence. I planned to run an "open shop" policy, common in some Right to Work states, where some work was union scale and other jobs were not.

Unfortunately Carter yielded to a cockeyed notion that the Feds should let the consumer interest rates suddenly seek their own level and by 1979 home building and most other US construction bombed.

We never went bankrupt ...but my wife was understandably burnt out on self-employment after the Carter fiasco. It may have had something to do with my kids drinking powdered milk while creditors received every dime.
I never promised her a rose garden ...but I promised to pay the money when I signed my good name on an invoice. I wish people that owed me money would have felt the same way.

Somewhere along the line, I realized all wealth, including wages, is politically won. So after losing a discussion with my wife, I eventually got the best non self-employment job I could in my area and that would be union. Like many things, unions are still important to the economy, important to America, though some might say a necessary evil.

It takes some thought to see the whole picture. Union coalitions are still the only counterpart to corporation coalitions ...where individual people are only a number. Both band together so that they may compete better than those left out of the loop. And, yes, greed is a factor. There are good and bad people in the ranks of both. Neither should be condemned overall simply for this reason. Balance is the key.

While early corporations initially allowed many to invest the amount of capital needed for major industry, they soon realized a buying power advantage as well. Buying labor for example. And buying legislation. And buying public opinion. Things we might accuse a union of doing ...but it is just the pot calling the kettle black.

Corporations now enjoy the same rights as a citizen, a very powerful citizen, more powerful than even our entire political structure. But the legal mandate to service the bottom line has created a very irresponsible citizen. Corporations do many things that an ordinary citizen would never be allowed to do such as major pollution(small fines), move off shore to avoid taxes(billions!) and buy elections(both major parties).

Corporations are the HP necessary to modern economy ...but it would be better if the public had the reins on this dangerous herd of wild horses ...just the opposite of the carefully contrived public opinion on government interference. Public opinion bought and paid for, I might add. Large segments of the public are a bit gullible. For the most part citizens ruled by corporate can't vote on corporate policy. We talk freedom but we don't always walk it.

Unions, while not perfect either, strive against all this B.S., a somewhat hidden benefit to all of us that have chose not to be self-employed, or, in the case of being a small business crushed by big business, otherwise common employees. It is my opinion that all workers should get a decent wage since they do all the work. The trick is determining what constitutes a decent wage. I know.

Something to keep in mind regarding protecting investors. Nobody has invested more in any business than a worker that has faithfully done his job for years. The American worker is, for the most part, a very deserving person that should be treated with the utmost respect. Really the American worker won both world wars, Rosie the Riveter side by side with G.I. Joe. The most important task we now have is securing industry within our US borders. For the next major world war. We all know it will happen. Human nature.

It's important that we do the right thing ...not ever let some paid corporate thug make it look like the typical worker is evil.

And then there's that thing called heritage:

Here, kids. Here's the keys to the country. It runs better than when I got it. Don't forget to change her oil on time, before she squeaks if possible. And tune 'er up once in a while.

Whatever you do, don't lose the keys.


...

[Excaliber]

No doubt Toyota is paying a decent wage BECAUSE of the Unions. No doubt 'big business' will take advantage of workers WITHOUT the Union. We've got to have some kind of balance of power, and I think were seeing that in this very pivotal war with UAW and the manufacturers. Will the Union die out right? I doubt it, if it does it will HAVE to rise again, to balance the power. But it will be substantially different, and it's shaping up that way now.

Chrysler closed something like 5 plants just before contract negotiations with the Union came up. Did they do that to gain an advantage, send a message? Slick move on their part any way.

Chrysler has NO overseas market to speak off, their solid USA, offshore manufacturing aint gonna happen anytime soon. GM, on the other hand, could say, 'screw you' and shift more and more overseas. I don't know about Ford, how they doing over sea?

Cerebus will likely do something to broaden their manufacturing outside the USA. I think they have to, it is after all a 'global market'. That will further hurt the Union. "WE" have got to out stuff together or "WE" will be out sourced by Toyota and others that will surely follow the demise of USA manufacturing.

[Wayne Maybury]

There is a lot more involved than just the wage of $XX per hour. The big three have been in the business of producing automobiles for almost 100 years while most of the Japanese manufacturers have only been producing a high volume of cars for a couple of decades. So what you ask?

GM, Ford, and Chrysler signed some very interesting contracts with the UAW in the 50s, 60s, and 70s when they had the market to themselves and they were making significant profits. These contracts included fringe benefits for retired as well as active workers.

The big three now have many more retirees than active workers and to make matters worse, they don't have the market share they once had. Since the off shore companies haven't been producing cars all that long, they do not have nearly the amount of retired workers.

While all kinds of numbers have been bantered about, GM has between $1500 and $2000 of benefit costs in each unit it sells. Compare that to Hyundai that has less than $100 per unit sold. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have a significant cost disadvantage before they evn turn the lights on in the morning.

The wonderful contracts signed 30 or 40 years ago are really hurting the big three today as their aging work force retires and they continue to lose market share. Membership in the UAW has dropped from 1.5 million in 1979 to just over 500,000 today. Fewer and fewer workers are supporting more and more ex-workers. There is no simple answer to this difficult problem. Either the UAW accepts reductions or eventually there will be no jobs left. I am not saying that all of this is the union's fault but I am saying that they were benefiting during the good times and now they are going to have to share the pain in the bad times.

I believe that the UAW (and CAW) do have a very legitimate complaint with the government in one specific area. The US and Canada allow foreign made (read Japanese, Korean, etc) automobiles to freely enter our countries while these countries have all kinds of barriers against automotive importation. Why should Japan be allowed to sell millions of cars here when it is all but impossible to sell an American made car in Japan? I am not a protectionist but I am definitely against one way free trade which is exactly what North America has with Japan in the area of automobiles.

Wayne

[427 S/O]

You are absolutely correct Wayne but, whoa to any that speak of protectionism.......

[Wayne Maybury]

As I said I do not believe in protectionism. I think that a very fair bilateral deal would be for the nations on both sides of the Pacific to agree that they can each sell an equal number of units in their trading partner's country. Right now virtually zero American cars can be sold in Japan primarily due to none trade barriers, so it looks like there would be a few less Hondas coming in here until they reduce those barriers. This would not effect Japanese cars being produced here.

Over the past decade, the ratio has been a few million to virtually zip. There does seem to be some room here for improvement, I would say. This isn't protectionism, this is TWO WAY TRADE. Let's face it, the Japanese have been very good at exploiting the North American car market while allowing few, if any, American cars to enter Japan. I once heard that the most powerful lobby group in Washington was the Japanese car producers. They probably learned that more than ball joints have to be greased.

Wayne

[427 S/O]

Wasn't referring to you Wayne, it's the lawmakers who can't figure a fair balance....

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

Wasn't referring to you Wayne, it's the lawmakers who can't figure a fair balance....

I think that the Japanese lawmakers could give courses, maybe even a post graduate degree, on protectionism.

Wayne