Remember that pilot who's pistol discharged...

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Of course, the weeping family of the dead worthless little prick is asking why he had to die. The bat was sawed off with electrical tape on the remaining handle...a weapon in its morphed life. Hit the cop, and stood over him ready to hit him again as he kept yelling "go ahead, shoot me!" The cop was quite accomodating.

The clip fell out of the auto as the dazed cop tried to unholster it...no chambered round...and he couldn't get to it to slide it back home, so he used the backup.

Yup...can't imagine anyone thinking they'll be able to load under all circumstances. But folks die for their opinions every day.

Sounds like"Suicide by Cop" to me.I just hope the cop can deal with it mentally.
We had a suicide by train not to long ago.As my friends train approached the guy walked between the rails and laid down on his back.As the Locomotive neared,he looked back and gave the crew the finger.He was then promptly turned into a meatball about 12 inches in diameter.
But i digress.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by AMF

No not at all, I'm talking about a gun with the magazine in, but no round in the chamber.

Note the cop's situation after being hit with a bat and dropped his ammo trying to chamber a round after being hit in the head with a bat.

Unloaded is unloaded.

I carry a S&W 40 cop special with a double safety and anti-shock protection in case it's dropped when I carry (certain situations). Turning the safety off is more protection than cocking a revolver...and it's a one-handed operation.

This thread had to do with a bad holster design...you don't fix that by keeping a gun unloaded.

In my opinion, of course.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by AMF

I fully support pilots carrying pistols. But I also think that they ought to have more training than a couple of weeks at some course. You wouldn't let a pilot fly a plane if he had only a couple of weeks training.....why would you want him to carry an instrument that's designed to kill people and could potentially cause a catastrophic accident on a civilian aircraft?

Your continued highly opinionated criticism of a program about which you obviously know absolutely nothing about are highly amusing. Graduated escalation? Chamber a round? In a scene of battle that starts with no warning and is the size of a double closet? You have obviously never set foot in a jet cockpit, yet you're trying to tell me the proper way to defend it. You're just cracking me up.

Go back to your air conditioned range or your street officer techniques (which are fine for the street but not a cockpit) and leave this to those of us who actually have a clue as to what's going on. Opinion born in ignorance and espoused as fact only serves to make the bearer of such look like a fool.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Note the cop's situation after being hit with a bat and dropped his ammo trying to chamber a round after being hit in the head with a bat.

Unloaded is unloaded.

I carry a S&W 40 cop special with a double safety and anti-shock protection in case it's dropped when I carry (certain situations). Turning the safety off is more protection than cocking a revolver...and it's a one-handed operation.

This thread had to do with a bad holster design...you don't fix that by keeping a gun unloaded.

In my opinion, of course.

If the holster required inserting a device that potentially activated the trigger, then not having a round in the chamber would eliminate that potential hazard.

The pilot sitting in the cockpit and the cop who was attacked from behind have entirely different duties, responsibilities and threats/dangers associated with their jobs. If a maniac with a baseball bat, could actually get a baseball bat on board a plane, he'd then have to blast by flight attendants, storm the cockpit and break down the door, to begin beating one of the pilots in the head (hopefully the one who wasn't carrying).

My point is that it's not a huge decrease in responsiveness for them to have the gun holstered without a round in the chamber. He's going to have to remove the gun from the holster anyway. In MOST scenarios, the pilot is going to have sufficient time to prepare for an attack on the cockpit.

A cop's job and situation is totally different I said that. I'm not a cop. I could go my whole life and not every have to draw or use my gun (hopefully). Cops are predisposed to certainly more threat/danger not only in terms of frequency, but also in terms of variety.

The likelihood of a terrorist trying to takeover an aircraft at this point is slim to none. Couple that with the increased security and the liklihood that he would even be marginally successful if he was dumb enough to try, makes it even less likely. Couple that with a cockpit door (that's supposed to be closed/locked during flight as I understand it) and the presence (or possible presence) of armed LE agents in the air....and it makes the need for having a gun that's ready to go....very small.

At the end of all things.....I don't care if someone carries loaded and ready to go....that's their choice. But if you're not familiar enough with your weapon OR the infamous holster that's required (or you're careless in how you handle the gun while in the holster) then you probably shouldn't be allowed to carry.

Just because someone passes a driver's license test doesn't make them a good driver. Just because a pilot passes a 2 week familiarization and safety course, doesn't make them an expert gun operator. I would HOPE that the pilot is an expert aviator....it's not unreasonable to demand he have the same level of competence handling a firearm before he endangers all his passengers by discharging the darned thing.

[767Jockey]

What a fool.

[Jamo]

I just can't understand keeping a gun unloaded in order for it to work with a holster design that does not work for its intended use in a cockpit. If you're not going to have one chambered in that setting, then the holster's trigger safety is not needed.

Next thing you know they'll ground all the planes so they can zip-tie the triggers.

We all agree re training...that's a given. But bad design is bad design.

[Jamo]

OK..let's have some new folks weigh in.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I just can't understand keeping a gun unloaded in order for it to work with a holster design that does not work for its intended use in a cockpit. If you're not going to have one chambered in that setting, then the holster's trigger safety is not needed.

Next thing you know they'll ground all the planes so they can zip-tie the triggers.

We all agree re training...that's a given. But bad design is bad design.

I agree with you. I think the holster is dumb, but if I thought for a second that it was going to cause me to have an accidental discharge, I wouldn't chamber a round.

I'm in complete agreement to change the dumb policies. In the meantime, you don't go along with them and have an AD and then blame them....

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by AMF

I'm in complete agreement to change the dumb policies. In the meantime, you don't go along with them and have an AD and then blame them....

This is a quantum leap from where you began. Good on you - acknowledging that there is a fundamental problem, beyond the presumed, that must be addressed.

I said it a while ago, I say it now - that holster design is obscene. It is predetermined failure, accentuating every opportunity for disaster.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Jamo

OK..let's have some new folks weigh in.

Sorry Jamo, I probably went overboard. I just tend to have a low tolerance for stupidity. I'll shut up now.

[Jamo]

It's ok...I've lost it a few times in court. $100 fines from the judge for calling opposing counsel a "half-wit" and a "moron" (two memorable incidents) usually usually calms me down.

Hmmm...me thinks me just found a way of doing the next fund drive for CC.

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Hmmm...me thinks me just found a way of doing the next fund drive for CC.

? - since you're the judge here, you gonna fine yourself?

[Jamo]

Well of course not...judicial immunity!

[AMF]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

This is a quantum leap from where you began. Good on you - acknowledging that there is a fundamental problem, beyond the presumed, that must be addressed.

I said it a while ago, I say it now - that holster design is obscene. It is predetermined failure, accentuating every opportunity for disaster.

I never said I supported the dumb policies, I simply said they're not a valid excuse for unintentionally discharging your weapon.

Altering the policies wouldn't eliminate the underlying problem, which is training and familiarity. You could get rid of the holster altogether, but somehow there are a bunch of other guys who are using the stupid thing and THEY were somehow able NOT to discharge their weapon. Maybe they were lucky........

[Jamo]

Again, rather than reading repeats of earlier statements...any new voices on this issue?

[Doug I]

yup

1. Scrap the whole dang scheme as it is right now
2. Start a new scheme from the ground up (your call on an intended pun )
2a. All crew with flight deck access are to have compulsory weapons training. You don't fly as crew till you pass. You're paid to be trained.
2b. Weapon is where pilots can reach it, in a standard holster
2c. Weapon is removed each crew change and checked for ammo. Flight deck is secured during weapon check.
2d. Weapon is kept without a round chambered.

During normal flight activities the weapon is not touched. Only time it's handled is while on the ground with the door locked. I don't think anyone could bust through the door and over power the crew before either pilot reacts, draws, and fires.

Tell my why this won't work.

Doug
ex pilot

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Doug I

yup

1. Scrap the whole dang scheme as it is right now
2. Start a new scheme from the ground up (your call on an intended pun )
2a. All crew with flight deck access are to have compulsory weapons training. You don't fly as crew till you pass. You're paid to be trained.
2b. Weapon is where pilots can reach it, in a standard holster
2c. Weapon is removed each crew change and checked for ammo. Flight deck is secured during weapon check.
2d. Weapon is kept without a round chambered.

During normal flight activities the weapon is not touched. Only time it's handled is while on the ground with the door locked. I don't think anyone could bust through the door and over power the crew before either pilot reacts, draws, and fires.

Tell my why this won't work.

Doug
ex pilot

Everything is reasonable except "2d" and you can't make regs about "when it is handled".

[Doug I]

granted ..... when weapon is in use the training of the bearer determines the actions taken.

2d was meant to be while holstered. I don't think the extra time to chamber a round is of any consequence in the big picture compared to the safety of it normally being empty.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Doug I

2d was meant to be while holstered. I don't think the extra time to chamber a round is of any consequence in the big picture compared to the safety of it normally being empty.

Have you read the rest of this topic?Training and "non-stupid" holsters will prevent any ADs.Any time you introduce an extra "step" required to bring your weapon to bear,you are INCREASING the chances of you not surviving the encounter.
If you have to think about what you are doing-you're gonna die.The less to think about-the better the odds of survival.

[Excaliber]

Following the current guidelines, I wonder if it's standard policy, thus enforced, to have a round IN the chamber during flight? During takeoff and/or landing?