Remember that pilot who's pistol discharged...

[Roscoe]

Inadequate handgun rules designed by Department of Homeland Security officials are to blame for last weekend’s accidental discharge of a pistol by a commercial pilot during landing preparations, a pilots association said yesterday. “The pilot has to take his gun off and lock it up before he leaves the cockpit, so he was trying to secure the gun in preparation for landing, while he was trying to fly the airplane, too,” said David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance. “In the process of doing that, the padlock that is required to be inserted into the holster pulled the trigger and caused the gun to discharge."

I figgered it was some nonsense like this.

This was the first report of a pilot’s gun being discharged on a plane.

Surprisingly.

APSA, an organization of pilots who lobby Congress on aviation security issues, said the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has refused to adopt standard carriage rules recommended last year by the Federal Air Marshal Service. “We complained to DHS two years ago that this was an unsafe rule,” Mr. Mackett said.

I can hardly wait to hear what the TSA considers safe.

Rather than carry the weapon on their person at all times, pilots must lock it up before opening the cockpit door, meaning pilots handle the gun as many as 10 times per flight, the association estimates. Pilots who have completed training to become federal flight deck officers (FFDOs) and carry weapons must use a holster used primarily as a home child-safety lock. A padlock is inserted through the holster and trigger guard, but, if inserted backward, it can trigger the gun, pilots say.

[bangs head on desk]

"It’s a completely unsafe system unless it’s used in a static environment — in a bedroom with good light. But to try to balance a gun on your lap and padlock it while flying an airplane 300 miles an hour, sometimes in the dark, is not secure,” Mr. Mackett said.

Well, du-uuh.
A loaded gun is safest in a holster… if you don’t fiddle with it. If you fiddle with it, it can fire.
Never, ever put a trigger lock on a loaded gun. Ever. It’s frigging dangerous!
(Did I remember to say “never?")

[Excaliber]

I love that [bangs head on desk], very fitting!

[Scott S]

Which Supreme Court Justice asked at hearing about the second amendment recently concerning hand guns in Washington DC something to the effect of...

Let me get this straight, if someone is breaking into your home a owner would have to find his pistol, find the key to the lock in a separate place, turn on a light, find his reading glasses, unlock the weapon then find the ammo in another drawer.....


Scott S

[AMF]

It's simple.

Make the penalty for an accidental discharge immediate termination and loss of flight status.

If that doesn't work, make the penalty for accidental discharge the supervisor's job and a fine.

In the military, the only way to prevent accidental discharges is to punish that person's supervisor. That way it's almost assured that it will get checked and double checked and the individual will receive more training than they can stand.

Don't punish the people who follow the rules. Punish the idiot who doesn't and if that's not enough, punish his boss.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by AMF

It's simple.

Make the penalty for an accidental discharge immediate termination and loss of flight status.

If that doesn't work, make the penalty for accidental discharge the supervisor's job and a fine.

In the military, the only way to prevent accidental discharges is to punish that person's supervisor. That way it's almost assured that it will get checked and double checked and the individual will receive more training than they can stand.

Don't punish the people who follow the rules. Punish the idiot who doesn't and if that's not enough, punish his boss.

Actually, It's not that simple at all.
First of all this is a volunteer program. Threaten a guy that if he makes a mistake he'll lose pay or his job, and they'll all resign from the program about as fast as they can get through on the phone to do so. There is no pay No pay involved for the program, lots of free time is donated to it to qualify and stay current.

The problem is that the program is set up so that the pilot has to handle the gun, lock and unlock, don and remove, many times per flight. It's ridiculous. Let the guys wear the gun like every other law enforcement officer can, lose the silly locks, and if more training is required to allow that, pay them to attend so they can get the requisite training. The program is set up so accidents like these are inevitable. This may be the first, it won't be the last.

[Wayne Maybury]

As a frequent flyer I would prefer no guns what-so-ever in commercial aircraft. I cannot imagine that there is any safe way to discharge a firearm in a pressurized aluminum tube filled with people going 500 mph, 7 miles above the earth.

Wayne

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

As a frequent flyer I would prefer no guns what-so-ever in commercial aircraft. I cannot imagine that there is any safe way to discharge a firearm in a pressurized aluminum tube filled with people going 500 mph, 7 miles above the earth.

Wayne

Old wives tale, Wayne. That's just not true. Remember, Aloha landed a plane successfully years ago with most of the roof gone.

[Wayne Maybury]

767

I know that you have much more experience and knowledge on this subject than I do. I will not argue with you.

All I am saying is that I feel much safer up there with no guns on the plane compared to the good guys having guns. I know it is a very rare occurance but look at the Air Canada pilot that had some sort of nervous break down while in the air several weeks ago. He came out of the cockpit screaming and asking for God. If he had a gun, what could have happened?

Worse still, what if there are bad guys on an aircraft. If security is doing their job, there is no way that a bad guy can get a gun on a plane. But maybe, just maybe, he could wrestle a gun away from a pilot now you have an armed bad guy.

I am all in favor of shooting terrorists, I just don't like the idea of it happening while up in the air. I think that far too many things could go wrong.

That must have been one scary landing in that convertible 737 in Hawaii.

Wayne

[767Jockey]

All sorts of things can happen Wayne. The chair your sitting in can get struck by lightning and so on. The fact is there is a MUCH better chance of a terrorist getting into the cockpit and taking over the plane than there is in a pilot going nuts, especially one in the program.

I have to word this VERY carefully, so bear with me. Any pilot who carries a gun is strictly forbidden to reveal that he or she is in the program. That being said, I now a little bit about this subject. Pilots who are authorized to get into this program are subject to very thorough background checks, and also to psychiatric screening. There is virtually no chance that a pilot in the program is going to go crazy, they've been analyzed, checked out every which way to Sunday, and gone through extensive training.

My question, when people express their very understandable reservations about the program, is:
Knowing what we know now, how many passengers and crew on the four planes lost on 9/11 would like to have the pilots armed if they could have a re- do on that days events? I'd bet if you were on one of those planes, you would too!

As I said earlier, this isn't so simple. Most people don't realize the vast level of screening and training these guys go through. They're not exactly handing out guns in the lunchroom. Trust me, you WANT these guys on your plane. As Martha Stewart says, "That's a GOOD thing."

[HI Cobra]

767,
I am with you 100% on this. I would hate to hear of some sheet head with
a plastic/ceramic knife trying a repeat of 9/11 with the same results because
no one could stop him.

[meat]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

As a frequent flyer I would prefer no guns what-so-ever in commercial aircraft. I cannot imagine that there is any safe way to discharge a firearm in a pressurized aluminum tube filled with people going 500 mph, 7 miles above the earth.

Sure there is: hit the bad guy with what comes out of the business end of the handgun.

Originally Posted by HI Cobra

I am with you 100% on this. I would hate to hear of some sheet head with a plastic/ceramic knife trying a repeat of 9/11 with the same results because no one could stop him.

While I agree that a repeat of 9/11 would be a bad thing, I'm also of the opinion that you can't tell a terrorist by what they wear on their head...it's what's going on in their head that's the issue.

Your pal,
Meat.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Actually, It's not that simple at all.
First of all this is a volunteer program. Threaten a guy that if he makes a mistake he'll lose pay or his job, and they'll all resign from the program about as fast as they can get through on the phone to do so. There is no pay No pay involved for the program, lots of free time is donated to it to qualify and stay current.

The problem is that the program is set up so that the pilot has to handle the gun, lock and unlock, don and remove, many times per flight. It's ridiculous. Let the guys wear the gun like every other law enforcement officer can, lose the silly locks, and if more training is required to allow that, pay them to attend so they can get the requisite training. The program is set up so accidents like these are inevitable. This may be the first, it won't be the last.

The program didn't make this idiot discharge his gun. I don't care if the program makes him load it, unload, dry fire it, holster it, put it in a safe, remove it from a safe....whatever.

PEOPLE discharge firearms, not programs. Just like PEOPLE kill other people with firearms. You can pass all the laws you want. You can alter all the policies and do whatever you like, but it's training the PEOPLE that prevents firearm accidents.

If a person isn't qualified, then maybe they shouldn't oughtta volunteer to carry the damned thing. If you can't even negotiate this "program" without discharging the thing, then it makes me question whether or not you're qualified to actually use it. I'd a whole lot rather have a pilot with no gun, than a pilot who THINKS he knows how to handle a gun.

Modern firearms just don't go off by themselves.

Again, make the penalty immediate termination from employment and loss of flight privelages for the person who discharges it and have some sort of penalty for their supervisor and this sorta thing would practically never happen. Guys would know that they better take extra care when handling the gun (and it would probably encourage those who weren't properly trained to take the extra time to get there) and it would also encourage supervisors to check and double check (imagine that concept).

[Excaliber]

Regarding Aloha, yeah they landed OK with the roof gone. When they did the stewardess count, they came up one short, she went missing somewhere over the water...

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by AMF

The program didn't make this idiot discharge his gun. I don't care if the program makes him load it, unload, dry fire it, holster it, put it in a safe, remove it from a safe....whatever.

PEOPLE discharge firearms, not programs. Just like PEOPLE kill other people with firearms. You can pass all the laws you want. You can alter all the policies and do whatever you like, but it's training the PEOPLE that prevents firearm accidents.

If a person isn't qualified, then maybe they shouldn't oughtta volunteer to carry the damned thing. If you can't even negotiate this "program" without discharging the thing, then it makes me question whether or not you're qualified to actually use it. I'd a whole lot rather have a pilot with no gun, than a pilot who THINKS he knows how to handle a gun.

Modern firearms just don't go off by themselves.

Again, make the penalty immediate termination from employment and loss of flight privelages for the person who discharges it and have some sort of penalty for their supervisor and this sorta thing would practically never happen. Guys would know that they better take extra care when handling the gun (and it would probably encourage those who weren't properly trained to take the extra time to get there) and it would also encourage supervisors to check and double check (imagine that concept).

You seem to feel you know exactly what happened here. I'll sit back and let you explain. I doubt you'll even come close. I have plenty of time, go ahead..........

[AMF]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

You seem to feel you know exactly what happened here. I'll sit back and let you explain. I doubt you'll even come close. I have plenty of time, go ahead..........

Let me first say, I'm a lifetime gun owner and enthusiast. I'm also a prior member of the military.

Having said those things....I don't need to know what happened. If someone else discharged his weapon, then he wasn't properly securing it. If he discharged his weapon, then he wasn't being careful enough. No further details needed.

UNLESS, UNLESS, UNLESS, you can take the weapon to a qualified armorer who can show that it had a mechanical defect or fault that made it malfunction and go off accidentally, then there's ZERO excuse for an accidental discharge. I'm sorry. This is a life and death matter. People (MANY) have died via accidental discharges. He should have been more careful.

If this program you speak of expected him to do something that put him in a position that was beyond his capability as a gun owner, then he should have had the brains to either stop and refuse or give up his rights to carry the thing until it got resolved. Again, this is a life and death matter. You wouldn't do something as a pilot that you knew to be overtly risky or beyond your capabilities just because a policy required it. You'd stop, ask for assistance, ask for retraining, ask for clarification, WHATEVER.

There are no excuses for YOUR weapon accidentally discharging....unless you have a mechanically defective gun/weapon (even in which case you still bare some of the culpability simply because you should be doing functions checks on the thing periodically.....after you clean it, which is often). And I could also see it happening if he was in some sort of conlict, strife or mortal danger....as in...he slipped on the jetway and he's hanging from the side of the aircraft and the gun falls or he's wrestling a rogue polar bear that's gotten loose in the airport and it goes off, or he's actually defending himself and the aircraft from a terrorist and it discharges.

[EarlsflyinCobra]

Hey 767,

Answer a question for me, please. I work at Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univ. and got into a discussion about this incident the other day with someone from the department that teaches classes in safety, FAA and TSA regs., and accident investigation. She tells me that the TSA rules say they are supposed to stow the gun after the plane has landed and docked, before they exit the cabin. This would make sense, which is what gives me a problem with it, the fact that the rules "MAKE SENSE", and we all know that hardly ever happens. LOL. So, is she telling me right or just trying to act like she knows more about it than she really does??

Thanks, Earl

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by EarlsflyinCobra

Hey 767,

Answer a question for me, please. I work at Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univ. and got into a discussion about this incident the other day with someone from the department that teaches classes in safety, FAA and TSA regs., and accident investigation. She tells me that the TSA rules say they are supposed to stow the gun after the plane has landed and docked, before they exit the cabin. This would make sense, which is what gives me a problem with it, the fact that the rules "MAKE SENSE", and we all know that hardly ever happens. LOL. So, is she telling me right or just trying to act like she knows more about it than she really does??

Thanks, Earl

All she said is true.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by AMF

Let me first say, I'm a lifetime gun owner and enthusiast. I'm also a prior member of the military.

Having said those things....I don't need to know what happened. If someone else discharged his weapon, then he wasn't properly securing it. If he discharged his weapon, then he wasn't being careful enough. No further details needed.

UNLESS, UNLESS, UNLESS, you can take the weapon to a qualified armorer who can show that it had a mechanical defect or fault that made it malfunction and go off accidentally, then there's ZERO excuse for an accidental discharge. I'm sorry. This is a life and death matter. People (MANY) have died via accidental discharges. He should have been more careful.

If this program you speak of expected him to do something that put him in a position that was beyond his capability as a gun owner, then he should have had the brains to either stop and refuse or give up his rights to carry the thing until it got resolved. Again, this is a life and death matter. You wouldn't do something as a pilot that you knew to be overtly risky or beyond your capabilities just because a policy required it. You'd stop, ask for assistance, ask for retraining, ask for clarification, WHATEVER.

There are no excuses for YOUR weapon accidentally discharging....unless you have a mechanically defective gun/weapon (even in which case you still bare some of the culpability simply because you should be doing functions checks on the thing periodically.....after you clean it, which is often). And I could also see it happening if he was in some sort of conlict, strife or mortal danger....as in...he slipped on the jetway and he's hanging from the side of the aircraft and the gun falls or he's wrestling a rogue polar bear that's gotten loose in the airport and it goes off, or he's actually defending himself and the aircraft from a terrorist and it discharges.

You have no clue as to the weapon involved, more importantly the holster, the locking mechanism, and it's predication for accidental firing due to it's horrendous design. As I said previously, you know nothing of the situation. You're pretty darned judgmental for a guy that has zero knowledge of the situation. I'm done with this - go ahead, have your say. I'm done. I think the others on here know who knows what's going on in this very unique situation and who hasn't a clue.

[jams]

On a side note, do they really use different/special bullets?

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by jams

On a side note, do they really use different/special bullets?

No, and can't get into more detail on that. Sorry.