Hybrids & A/C

[Don]

It was mentioned on a radio commentary that the fuel mileage with the combination gas and electric hybrids , can be reduced up to 25 % when running the A/C compressor.

Correct or other opinion ?

[427 S/O]

Beats me, but I still like the burn-it-while-you-make-it hydrogen gas generator concept.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Don

It was mentioned on a radio commentary that the fuel mileage with the combination gas and electric hybrids , can be reduced up to 25 % when running the A/C compressor.

Correct or other opinion ?

Don,

It's true, in a way, regarding hybrids such as the Toyoya Prius (intro 2000) and Honda Insight (intro 1999) although 25% is very much exaggerated considering the alternative is a breezy open window.

The notable AC/gain reason is that the Toyoya Prius and Honda Insight were so well streamlined, that opening a window would cause more fuel to be spent for extra open-window drag than the efficient ac compresser would burn. The Honda Insight was even more slippery (co-efficient of drag) than the Prius but it was only a 2-seater and permanently died out (It'll be replaced!). The strange-shaped 4 door Prius was the slipperiest production car sold in 2004. The still available ugly Prius is actually a very handy 5-seater (narrow, 4 is better) with a roomy hatch-back. Footroom, front and back, exceeds the Camry. Search http://priuschat.com/ .

With gas as high as it is, the 44 aver/mpg Prius is more popular than ever and uses an electric compresser that looks like a small self-contained window-air unit with no external leaky engine driveshaft seal as is normal in automotive. The AC compressor, or heater, run seamlessly, dead-engine, off battery during brief stops at stoplights etc. The Prius uses electric heat elements to speed cabin warmth in cool weather and saves warm coolant in a thermos container over several days, to achieve extremely short engine warm-up after start using a standard heater core. Furthermore, there are absolutely no "hydraulic fluids" with total electric tranny and electric power steering. Disc brakes do use brake fluid but last the lifetime of the car because they only engage the last one mph down to zero mph.

Maybe we should have developed accessories this way to start with years ago, but gas was so cheap then. Expect the vendors to gear up accordingly with new offerings soon.

The Prius hybrid got a headstart but there is nothing ingenious about the Prius ...Toyota merely uses every common advantage possible and sells the car (with extra-ordinary quality control) at an average price for midsize sedans. Check prices on their website: http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/ .

The hybrid sedan mpg gain will knock your socks off. But a "different" and "electric" package like this is very chancy and hard to forge through the usual marketing channels for any established corporation. One must consider this when passing judgement on domestic GM, Ford and Chrysler. And never forget ...their unique internal combustion/hydraulic tranny powertrain is all they have had to offer ...so far. New game and scary for them. Most of the next gen automotive engineers are going to be much younger and versed in electrics. This has got to be one H of an exciting time in R&D.

Other lesser early hybrids such as those by GM and Ford have been introduced, but are mainly politically designed to meet minimum qualification for carpool express lanes rather than have any real fuel efficiency value whatsoever.

But that's a changin'! The newest 2009 Tahoe SUV and Silverado pick-up offerings from GM are astounding in their segment. I think America will catch up shortly. The future will be even more amazing than it has been.

========================================\

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

Beats me, but I still like the burn-it-while-you-make-it hydrogen gas generator concept.

Perry,

Right now current technology still favors straight electric ...but hydrogen holds great promise ...and if anybody can make it happen, America can.

Even more promising (and non-disrupting) is that gaseous hydrogen will be marketable by the same in-place American infrastructure as now furnishes us petroleum. In spite of recent disappointments, keep in mind, we have been paying far less than any other country for our fuel for a long time. VIVA la future American enterprise!!! Three cheers for the industry and America that made it, and continues to make it, possible!!!

They are taking a beating now but American oil companies do wear white hats. Four bucks a gallon is still cheap and we all know it ...even as we whine. Just ask any other country.


...

[Don]

Source: Business Week

AUTO DESIGN June 16, 2008, 12:32PM EST
The Electric Car Lives
Backed by U.S. venture capital, Norwegian company Think is betting its Ox concept vehicle can prove the electric car's time has finally arrived

by Matt Vella

Clean, quiet, and relatively profitable to produce, electric vehicles have had a rough start in the U.S.: Five years after General Motors (GM) nixed its innovative EV1 electric car program, just a handful of automakers have committed to making and selling electric vehicles on a mass scale any time soon.

Enter Think Global, a Norwegian upstart plotting a U.S. invasion via pint-size, affordable electric cars. Think has been selling gas-free, Lilliputian city cars in Europe and will start peddling them to fuel-crunched Americans in 2009. The company's newly formed North American division has high hopes for Think's existing models—and even higher ones for the upcoming Th!nk Ox, a concept unveiled at the Geneva International Motor Show earlier this year.

An electrified people's car for the 21st century, the Ox is a preview of Think's next-generation production vehicle, due out in 2011. Roughly the size of a Toyota (TM) Prius, the Ox can travel between 125 and 155 miles before needing a recharge, and zips from zero to 60 miles per hour in about 8.5 seconds. Its lithium-ion batteries can be charged to 80% capacity in less than an hour, and slender solar panels integrated into the roof power the onboard electronics. Inside, the hatchback includes a bevy of high-tech gizmos such as GPS navigation, a mobile Internet connection, and a key fob that lets drivers customize the car's all-digital dashboard. Pricing has yet to be announced, but the company's current vehicles cost less than $25,000.

Although little-known, Think North America is backed by an undisclosed amount from Silicon Valley venture capital firms RockPort Capital Partners and Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, which famously invested early in companies such as Amazon.com (AMZN) and Google (GOOG). General Electric (GE) made an unrelated $4 million investment in March to support the company's battery research and development operations.

DISTINGUISHED DESIGN
Even more than its well-funded sponsors or cutting-edge technology, the Ox's killer app could be its design. To date, most electric cars available in the U.S.—small, unsafe, and underpowered—have been intended strictly for the earliest early adopters and the most faithful green believers. In contrast, Think's senior vice-president for design, Katinka von der Lippe, says the Ox is a "real car, a big step away from the cuteness of [other] electric vehicles." All that distinguishes the Ox from name-brand, fuel-sipping compact cars, in fact, is its silent hum and zero emissions.

The Ox also embodies the characteristic simplicity of Scandinavian design, featuring uncomplicated lines and clean, uncluttered surfaces. A band of unpainted metal stretches from the front of the vehicle to its rear, revealing the Ox's interior architecture, an aluminum frame. An unassuming grille is tucked between sophisticated sloping headlamps. "The Ox is a leap forward for the design of electric cars," says von der Lippe, "and, we think, the product of a mature company."

Still, the American market for electric vehicles "is virtually nonexistent," says John O'Dell, a senior editor specializing in green vehicles for car-buying site Edmunds.com. Even well-established gas-electric hybrids such as the Prius and Honda's (HMC) Civic account for barely 3% of U.S. auto sales. "Until you've got a compelling product, you won't have a market," adds O'Dell. Aside from the sleek Tesla Motors Roadster, which carries a price tag of nearly $100,000, there are almost no fully functional electric vehicles that meet average drivers' requirements. The Ox could fill that gap.

"It'll take a lot of time," Wilber James, RockPort's managing general partner and acting president of Think North America, says of the challenge of selling electric vehicles to American drivers, who still overwhelmingly prefer trucks to thriftier small cars. "We're going to focus at first on niche markets—cities, universities, and fleets."

INNOVATIVE MANUFACTURING
The company's business model, says James, is similar to that of PC maker Dell (DELL), which fueled its rise by ruthlessly optimizing its manufacturing and supply chain. Think's ultralean manufacturing system lets it build production facilities for about $10 million, compared with the billions invested in new plants by old-line manufacturers. That means more factories closer to customers, further cutting costs.

In addition, factories "could also be the retailers," says James, which would add a unique element to Think's branding. The company, he says, will be profitable if it can sell 10,000 vehicles a year. At 20,000 to 30,000 units in annual sales, Think can cut its component costs in half.

That focus on innovative manufacturing, in addition to the high-tech Ox itself, may ultimately set the company apart from previous attempts—and, Think is betting, finally help jump-start the U.S. market for electric cars.

Vella is a writer for BusinessWeek.com in New York.