Now here is a surprise....

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Wayne,you're pretty good at"selective"posting.

25 years ago?try 35-40.25 years ago Japanese cars were made better than our "Detroit Iron".Nothing says garbage like late70s-early 80's GM cars.

American quality policies?That's funny.You mean Dr.Demings quality policies.The ones Japan took to heart and Detroit said F.U. to.

Walmart did the same thing as Hyundai.

Bill

I'm not really sure what the "selective" shot is about but at least you think I'm good at it.

OK, 30 instead of 25 years ago. They still produced crap but learned from Demming (sorry my memory failed me yesterday so I just said American) whereas many American companies brushed his theory aside.

Walmart has just closed a tire shop at one of their stores up here that received union certification a month or two ago and I live half a mile away from a McDonald's that was shut down weeks after the union got in.

Unions were a good thing when companies and management were taking advantage of the workers back in the 30's but in most cases they have now outlived their usefullness.

Wayne

[Cobrabill]

[quote=Wayne Maybury;Unions were a good thing when companies and management were taking advantage of the workers back in the 30's but in most cases they have now outlived their usefullness.

Wayne[/QUOTE]

With one or so exceptions,i agree completely.

[VRM]

Jamo,

Quite honestly you have no idea what my 'experience' is, and yet you assume that I have none when it comes to dealing with unions on a day to day basis.. Attempting to belittle my experience by putting it in quotes while trumpeting yours as the be-all-end-all is arrogant and stupid. My experience is what it is, as is yours, and I have formed my ideas and opinions based on mine, as you have based on yours. A lot of that experience I have would back up everything you said about unions - I have seen similar and I think it is pathetic. I've also seen managers sell out other managers, create fiefdoms of yes men for their own personal glorification, and kill projects because it was contrary to their own whims - and they are pathetic also. People are people whether they are union or not. Bad employees can hide in a union, or they can hide behind arrogance, personality cults, or indifferent upper management.

My personal experience is with every one of the original RBOCs, along with other smaller companies like Cincinati Bell. This includes their unions and managers, and my experience with them all has some good and some bad. I've also worked with dozens of phone companies internationally - some with trade unions, some without. And the majority of my time spent at different locations was not usually measured in hours or days, but weeks or months.

I'm not sure what about me or what I write you think is dishonest - I've been a lot of places and done a lot of stuff under a variety of conditions. Ron61 and I have shared some of those bizarre telco stories privately ranging from funny to tragic (union guy jumping on the hood of a managers car during an NET strike - she panics and floors it and kills the guy. He got what he deserved IMHO). The Dilbert strip was based on real world events at PacBell. Perhaps phone company unions are different that what you are used to dealing with - I would not expect that to be the case, but my personal experience with unions outside phone companies is very limited so it is certainly possible. Still, I've crossed my share of pickets, and had my share of grievances filed against me. I've also pissed off my share of managers when I have had to rewrite/scrap their plans because they forgot to take earthquake zoning into account, or their air conditioning or power calculations were wrong. I was a 'fixer' (my old boss' phrase for what I did - not mine) in switch/data services and 411/911 for the companies I worked for. I had to go onsite and co-ordinate installations and solve complex technical problems when the locals could not (something a lot of them resented, too). Ever try to co-ordinate fixing a data circuit spanning 4 different telcos and 4 different unions all with different rules about what they could and could not do? It is a huge PITA, and management does everything it can to bury it's head in the sand about its process failures.

Your comments regarding the tunnel ceiling collapse were not that the bolt(s) failed but that the union workers who installed them were at fault (an unreasonable assumption as we did not yet know why the bolts failed).

Big Dig Tunnel Thrill Ride

In fact, Powers Fasteners was indicted last year. The NTSB report (not sure what OSHA has to do with materials and failure analysis in this case, but please feel free to let me know) indicated that safety issues were:
* Insufficient understanding among designers and builders of the nature of adhesive anchoring systems;
* Lack of standards for the testing of adhesive anchors in sustained tensile-load applications;
* Inadequate regulatory requirements for tunnel inspections; and
* Lack of national standards for the design of tunnel finishes.

The unions, as far as I know, were not responsible for the design, load testing, inspection regulations, or national standards. I am not a lawyer, so if I am missing something in their contract that indicates that any of those areas falls into their area of responsibility please let me know. Regarding the builders, I suppose that could include the unions and management of the companies building the tunnel. So do the unions have engineers who verify specs provided by engineering groups, or are they just supposed to follow the work orders supplied to them? My experience with CWA and others has always been the latter. Perhaps the union foreman should have some level of responsibility for the lack of inspections after the first failure in a different location, but something like that usually indicates poor communication, and the NTSB cites the companies rather than the unions for not performing inspections after the first unexplained failure.

You made a call based on what you thought my experience was with unions. Clearly you have no clue about that because you don't know me well enough to even have that information. You also made a call regarding the bolts and the unions who put them in before you had enough information to make an informed decision. You know what they say about assuming - just please leave me out of it.

BTW, sorry it took so long to write this - I was also reloading a few servers and showing a noob how to read MIBs.
Oh, and I take nothing here personally (well, except once) - an old flame once said I reminded her of Spock with Steven Wrights sense of humour.

[VRM]

Oh, and Jamo,
I can't say that I know you well enough to say that I like you, but I do enjoy going toe to toe with you, and you are reasonably interesting and generally well spoken. I'd be happy to buy the first pint in person, but whether I stayed for second would depend on whether you were being too full of yourself or not.

Got the warm fuzzies yet?

[paulbarrick]

United we stand, divided we fall.....the United States of America....why do unions have to receive all the blame? A lot of benefits we all enjoy are a result of union legislative activity....worker safety, unemployment benefits, health insurance paid by employer, pensions and the list goes on....I am heavily involved in a very strong union....the union of a husband and wife....we all need to quit blaming everybody and buy American again...I have owned nothing but American made cars for 40 years and currently own 4 and have had no problems with any of them....Go USA

[Jamo]

Feeling warm fuzzies...me? None whatsoever at this juncture given your failure to follow the fact that I was responding to the assinine assumptions you thought to make about me.

Truth is, and I'll repeat it...I am not impressed with the fact that you've only dealt with one industry and union for you to draw any conclusions. Having represented more than my fair share of utilities, I find them akin to government employers...and their managers somewhat below the grade when compared to the real private sector where the full extent of competition is at its highpoint. They are fully regulated in what they can charge, and though not the monopolies of old...as damn close to as one can be after deregulation. Seriously, this background of yours most certainly explains a great deal about your position on many issues...you have been sheltered from the real nuts and bolts of American enterprise and capitalism. Not saying utilities are bad, BTW...it's just that I see them practicing "capitalism-light" compared to real businesses in industries with full competition. Also...I really hate the telephone companies...they suck with not much less vacuum than the post office.

As to how OSHA would be involved with the Boston tunnel...obviously if you don't know, you're not in a position to comment on it, are you. Pretty basic stuff real employers have to deal with whenever there's an industrial accident of any kind. You always ask folks here to educate you...the answer is no. And if you don't know...kindly STFU about things you don't know about. [ included to prevent the need for self-moderation.]

You made some assinine comments about where I was coming from...I responded in a comparative nature. I did not mean to invite you to respond with your resume of experience, such as it is, and frankly, it is less than I thought.

I'm more interested in the owners of business who have their own ass out there while dealing with unions, or managers who live in the real world of non-government supported industries such as utilities with regulated price-fixing.

Warm fuzzies? You can snuggle up to my big warm fuzzy...

BTW, you're right...no reason for us to like each other from our past online discussions, so now I hate you. Feel better?

[Jamo]

...and by the way, we need to get this thread back on track.

Steve, you and I are banned from any further discussions on this thread, and there should be no commentary from anyone else regarding the exchange between myself and that whiney little POS.

I will, of course...continue to monitor the thread.

[Sharroll Celby]

JEEZ...Just dont tell us anymore stories about that lawyer "in you!" lol !!!

[Jamo]

What did I just say about there being no commentary about our exchange and getting back on track? The exchange had us both talking about things beyond relevance to this thread or of any particular importance to the progress of the human condition.

I meant it.

[VRM]

Hey Mods,
How do I report some stuffed-shirt jackass calling me a "whiny little POS"?

[Jamo]

You just did and he's an a$$hole. Now stop whining and get off the thread.

[Paul F]

Management's fault, union's fault. I don't care. If their cars don't suit people, sales slump, and they go bankrupt, excellent. That's the way capitalism and democracy work. It self corrects the issue.

[Ron61]

I believe it was the port at San Diego that they showed on the news last night where they are having to rent space to park the Hondas and Toyotas that are being off loaded as they can't get dealers to take them right now. They showed several big areas full of new cars and no fences around them. Maybe if they aren't able to move them right now they should cut back on the amount they ship.

As Paul said, things will eventually correct themselves but it may take more time than some people think it will. One of our dealerships here announced they are cutting back to half size and trying to avoid laying off any more people than they have to.

Ron

[Joe Wicked]

Ron, I saw that yesterday on the news, but I did not catch where it was. I saw BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Volkswagon, and Audi. I sure there were others, but it appears that the American Consumer is just not buying cars right now. I know one guy who for the last 10 years has bought a new Mercedes every year just before Thanksgiving. He said this year he is not. He is a friends dad who makes well over $150k/year and can afford it, but has decided to change to every 2 years now.

[Bill Bess]

Maybe they could take all those unsold little cars in San Diego and dump them in the bay to be used as a break water, or new fish habitat. Then the un employeed US auto workers would have a great place to go fishing when their respective companies go broke.

Actually a "True American" would only buy an American car or product if at all possible. I know it's tough to do but if you want Americans to be strong....don't buy that stuff from across the sea.

Old Bill...A Real American!

[Ron61]

Bill,

I have never owned a Foreign made car, but I will say the quality of some of the ones that I have driven is quite a bit above what my American made ones is.

Ron

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Bill,

I have never owned a Foreign made car, but I will say the quality of some of the ones that I have driven is quite a bit above what my American made ones is.

Ron

Ron

I have also never owned a foreign made car and I have only had Amercian cars when I was supplied with a leased company car. I now rent a lot of daily rentals and I try to get an American car whenever possible. I guess that you can say that I have been willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Wayne

[392cobra]

If two items (cars,electronics,etc.) are the same price and one is made in the U.S.A. and the the other over seas,I will buy the higher quality one no matter if it isn't Made in the U.S.A. or is.

If any American business wants my business they had best have equal or better quality to the foreign brand.

Americans can and have done quality products before,we need to again.

Our Big 3 just keep shooting themselves in the foot and I'm tired of buying the bullets for them.

[4RE KLR]

Originally Posted by 392cobra

Americans can and have done quality products before,we need to again.

Our Big 3 just keep shooting themselves in the foot and I'm tired of buying the bullets for them.

I do not have a lot of experience dealing with unions, but I think (just my .02) that Fred's comments about sum it up. We as Americans can do better and we need to stand up to the industrial plate and 'Just do it'.

Yes, Americans do have a lot to thank the unions for, but I think they have taken it too far to the extreme. It seems the union members are the only ones getting the benefits any longer.

For example I haven't had employer paid health care for the last twenty years. I do not get breaks in the middle of the day for any reason. And if I sat down at work because the water fountain didn't work I'd be out on my ass in a heartbeat.

The unions (workers) need to get more in line with reality and the American people as a whole instead of everyone trying to be King.

[427 S/O]

Quote: get more in line with reality!

Couldn't have said it better Steve, they've been coddled for so long, they regard those juvenile gripes to be 'serious' work rules?. I retired from a company where cross utilization was the norm, and arriving early or leaving a little late was no big deal.

We had free days off when work allowed, and I remember when someone's child or other relative was sick or injured, volunteers would make up his/her work while they were out.

No, we didn't have a union.......