Should the US bailout the big three automakers?

[MFE III]

Although I'm not a fan of Gov't bailing out any 'ol company that finds itself in financial trouble, I'm afraid it's necessary here. I heard a statistic that one in ten jobs in the US is connected to domestic auto production. And with the nasty recession we're in, the big three going out of business would be disasterous. Moreover, Chap. 11 isn't an option. Might as well shut the doors if any automaker files for Chap 11. No one will buy a car from an automaker in Chap 11. They'll be concerned, as would I, about warranty, parts availability and resale if the company doesn't pull out of Chap 11.
As was pointed out before, it worked to Chrysler's and the US's benefit in the 80's.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Jamo

In a word (or a few)...NFW!!!!!!!

Let them go through BK and/or obtain investment from other mfgs. I was against the Chrysler loan a few decades ago, and I truly don't care if they paid it back...it opened the door to the failures of our corporate world to come begging ever since. Saving that POS made money for a fellow Armenian (Kirkorian), lowered the quality of Mercedes Benz and now rests in the hands of a private investment firm...who did we save it for? Where do we stop...airlines, utilities, big retail corporations, etc.? Isn't Macy's as much a fixture as GMC?

And you can't compare Lee Iacocca to the current schmoe's that run GM and Ford. Chrysler actually paid the loan back plus interest and a small profit for the American taxpayer.

A guaranteed loan to GM and Ford? No way. I can guarantee you that Ford and GM will be back asking for more and they will never pay a dime back to the American taxpayer. Virtually, the entire product lines of both manufacturers have been bankrupt for decades. I've owed both and will avoid ever buying another again. Let them BK and reorganize.

Uh, except for the Ford GT or possibly a Corvette.

[xracerbob]

I detest the idea of a bailout for the big 3, but I am certain the new O administration will do it as payback for the $$$ unions have contributed to the Democrats.

Bankruptcy has worked for other huge corporations and we should let it work here. To prevent the BK would be tantamount to putting a bandaid on brain tumor.

[xlr8or]

I say NO! No more than bailing out the dumb assed people that bought houses they couldn't afford on interest only loans then took out equity to buy a bunch of toys. Now they are screwed as those baloon payments are do and they can't pay it. Phuck 'em. Live within your means or pay the consequences. Enjoy living in the street, why should my tax dollars bail your ass out when I was the responsible one the lived within my means and paid my bills and taxes.

[Greg Curtis]

The automakers have been making the same mistakes over and over for years and they aren't going to change their ways of doing business. Bailing them out is just throwing billions away.

[RICK LAKE]

I have worked for both Ford and GM on assembly lines back in the 80's. The pay was 13.24 per hour with a shift different of 22 cents. There was alot better health package with better coverage than what is today. Unions 50 years ago where needed. Today they are the PIMPS of the the rank and fill of the auto industrys. They protect people that should be fired for being drunk, high, smoke drugs or have sex on the job work site. Problem was about color. Much management was white and the line workers where every color. Most people I worked with took pride in the work and job. The 5-10% made it hard for the 90% that cared. If you want to put 10 million people out of the street and close the big 3, fine, Just remember that in 1-2 years none of us will be getting parts for our COBRAS. NO PARTS, NO TOYS!!! The big 3 have finished off the unions. As each contract reachs term, they close that plant. The Union has no power to tell or bargin with anyone. All new auto plants will be in 3 countrys like Mexico, Taiwan, Korea, even Canada. Free trade has done wonders for this country. The big 3 want to go under and walk away from paying pensions, health care, schooling, and other things that where in the contracts. Others here have said the same thing I am saying, the only thing this country is still good at is WAR!!!! A hate war for what it has done to many families here. The problem is when did WAR get RULES??? You kill the bad guys with every means available, and go where they go until they quit, die, or get killed. Even sports for the US is harder to win at. It took me 24 years of saving money to build my cobra. I did it the hard way. Saving nickle and dimes in a 5 gallon water jug. Some people I know think they are entitled and deserve it. Charge it to credit cards, home loans, or any other means of getting the money to buy one. Some people max out all there credit cards and go bankrupt. This hurts every one of us. These people should have every piece of personal properity seized and sold off. They keep there house, 2 cars for BASIC transportation, have there wages garnish, and given enough to live on. No cell phones, basic TV. 27" Black and whiteTV no 40" plasmas. Clothes allowance. Basic home cooking, not the fast foods and takeouts 3 to 4 nights a week. Last but least, They pay and live on CASH ONLY. There is no choice about this question. Think about 10 million people not being able to buy the basics to live on. You all better get guns and start arming yourselves. You will be protecting your homes. It's about the haves and havenots. Some one once said that" America could never be conquer from an outside enemy, It will be destroyed from within." I hope that this major conflict will hold off for another 25 years. George Carlin should have ran for President. He knew the problems and had some good answers. Rick L.

[Cashburn]

I've been thinking the Gov't needs to focus on 9 out of 10 jobs instead...

[mr bruce]

Yeah Let them F___in fail. That way. We can put 2- 3 million Americans out of work. Put them on unemployment insurance for a year. That should be cheaper for sure. Pay to retrain them. To do what I don't know. Maybe bartender school? There won't be much demand for high paying jobs when the economy is in shambles.

Take away those huge pension checks too. $1500 on average is way to much for Ma and PA. Let them crawl to the gov't and file for medicaid. That doesn't cost the taxpayer a dime right?

And All those stupid Americans that have succumbed to pre-existing medical conditions should be left cold. That way when/if they find new employment they can be denied medical because of that "pre-existing" condition. That is IF they find an employer that offers medical insurance.

Yeah those damned Americans don't deserve what they have. They're overpaid bums! They build crappy cars like the Ford Focus(37mpg) or the Chevy Malibu (33 mpg) or the Dodge Charger (27mpg) and the Corvette for that matter. What a gas hog. Each Corvette probably comes with it's own hole in the ozone layer.

Some of you just don't get it.

This can be fixed with proper oversite of the industry. They made Chrysler do it in 1979-1983. They can do it again.
I know everyone has BAIL- OUT Fatigue right now. And with good reason. But with the current financial crisis we're in we can't afford to make a mistake of this magnitude. It could trigger a catstrophe of epic proportions. Foreign governments are praying to God that we allow OUR manufactuing base to wither and die!

GO America!

[RedBarchetta]

Nobody wishes to see anyone fail. But the Big 3 haven't learned to run with the pack (i.e. be competitive). They are finally arriving to the hybrid dance but it's quite a bit late. For years they have been throwing at us 6,000+lb SUVs that are great at hauling stuff but not worth a popcorn fart beyond that. But the Dems will support their union buddies (that certainly helped bank roll Obama's election).

A bailout will end up being the result. First phase will be the current administration modifying the existing $25B loan that was supposed to be used to develop hybrids. They will do this because GM is listing to one side. Then Obama and his minions will throw even more tax dollars on the fire.

So everyone collectively bend over and grab their ankles...pass the lube, please.

P.S. Ingenuity is the father of invention. I'm not worried about not finding parts for my Cobra if the whole situation goes to where it should (BK). If what's on there now isn't available, I'll figure out something else. Or someone else will and that will be the birth of a new company with new jobs. That's how free enterprise works, folks, a concept that the Democratically controlled Congress doesn't get.

[olddog]

The reason Chrysler was bailed out in the late 1970's was not to save a car maker. At the time Chrysler built tanks (and more) for the military, and it was a national security issue.

Also Chrysler had completed years of research & developement and was about to sell turbin powered automobiles. The military new that turbin powered autos would lead to other companies and countries learning how to mass produce cheap, high quality, turbin engines, thus giving away a military advantage. They did not want this to happen.

The deal was that Chrysler stopped all work on the turbin engine car and sell the tank division to another company, in exchange for the loan to re-tool and build the fricking K-car of all things.

So let's be clear, the bail out of Chrysler had little to do with saving jobs or anything that was talked about at the time.

Also there was a plan of how the company would become proffitable again and restructuring was part of the deal. All I have heard so far is give me money or bad things will happen. Kind of sounds like extortion and racketeering (however it is spelled).

[John Martin]

I with you guys , Lets keep importing our cars . And export nothing . Everthing can be done overseas should be . All computor jobs that can be done in places like india should be .Got to love that cheap labor ! Maybe Gm should have make a 4 cylinder 80 HP corvett .

[SPF2245]

Hey Bruce, 2 or 3 million out of work...um, no. Let them fail hard, then go through Chapter 11, clear out the crap, redesign and cut the fat (Yeah, that means no more Crown Vic, Hummer H-whatever, Mercury...and a good number of other wastes of resources). Then, they hire back all those employees who WANT to work, for wages that reflect the amount of work they do (check Honda/Toyota wage models for example). Then, cut some of the 14000 dealers (gee, there are four Ford Dealers, three Chevrolet Dealers and three Dodge dealers in a 10 mile area here...to one Honda and one Toyota dealer). Then give them some money to restart, tell GMAC to get a life (sorry, again bad loans are more of a problem them they want to talk about in public). As for the UAW, I live near a couple UAW plants, took a tour to see a Dodge power plant factory...then went and saw the new Honda plant, let's just say, alot less employees working for less at the Honda, with tighter quality standards, period.

[Jerry Clayton]

I was out to NAPA for a battery and Lowe's for a garbage disposal----I've always been concerned about all the foreign cars on the road, but tonight I was looking at the pick ups and vans-----Seems like most have ladders, welders,etc of some real workers---and rest assured that the people driving them needed there capacity to haul stuff to the job-----I also noticed that there was way too many BMW, Mercedes, Lesus, etc-----

Most of the time I call somewhere for something, it seems like it goes to a call center---India, Manila, etc-----

HP put out a good report today----call them up and see where your call goes---


What has happened to Americans????? People all over the world want to come here and our citizens seem to want to send everything away----Did any of you ever do anything for your country??????

The auto makers will be saved to insure our military might-----and if they aren't , you had better start looking for someplace to hide---

Oh, new industry----bomb shelters

[SPF2245]

Hey John, Honda and Toyota make more here (US of A) then people care to recognize...same with BMW. Guess what, they don't need hand outs because they don't have UAW fat, useless model after useless model (ok, the Honda Ridgeline sucks). They invested in their business and they are making money, even with a 30% drop in sales. As for India, let's face it, that is who we have to beat...you can complain or fight, UAW and the Big 3 want huge money for themselves while the tax payer makes up the difference. I'm done giving money to bad investments, I don't agree with ANYTHING said to continue with the current failure of these guys funded by me or my children. $25B for what, 6 months of the same...what happens then, another $25, then another...all the while what has changed...is the UAW going to re-do contracts (the answer is no), is the BIG 3 going to change their business models...nope not per their words.

[sparks]

BILL WELLS, GREAT POST. cobra392,bobcat you sound like a bunch of bitter old farts(chill out cooter)EVERYONE IS SO QUICK TO BLAME SOMEONE. SOME OF YOU WOULD PROB. BE HAPPY IF THEY HIRED A BUNCH OF MEXICANS FOR $15HR AND THINK THE PROB. WOULD BE FIXED AND IF THAT DIDNT WORK YOU WOULD SAY THAT THEY R OVERPAYED. BEING A IBEW MEMBER AND ALSO WORKING NON-UNION I HAVE HAD THE BENEFIT TO SEE BOTH SIDES. WE DEF. NEED UNIONS IN SOME WORK AREAS. AS FAR AS MY INDUSTRY GOES ABOUT 10% OF THE WORKERS R USELESS! AND GUESS WHAT, THEY HARDLY EVER WORK. SO THEY REALLY DONT HAVE A BIG EFFECT ON ME. IF YOU SUCK THEN YOU GET FIRED.....I ALSO HAD THE PRIV. TO RE-TOOL THE CHRYSLER PLANT IN IL. AND MOST OF THE TRAVELING IBEW MEMBERS NEEDED FOR A JOB THAT SIZE CAME FROM ALL OVER THE US TO WORK THE BIG OT. MOST OF THE GUYS THERE WERE GOOD GUYS TRYING TO MAKE SOME $$$ WHAT AMAZED ME WAS ALL THE STANDING AROUND WE DID BECAUSE THE TOP EXECS,ENGINEERS AND UPPER MANAGEMANT COULDNT FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HELL THEY NEEDED,WANTED OR EVEN SURE HOW TO MAKE SOMETHING WORK. MORE UNPRODUCTIVE TIME THAT I HAD EVER SEEN. BUT I AM SURE THE WORKERS GOT BLAMED FOR IT. THE POINT IS THAT IT IS EVERYONES FAULT. NOT JUST ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE. SAYING THAT ALL UNION WORKERS R USELESS IS LIKE ME SAYING THAT 90% OF THE GUYS I WORKED W/THAT WERE FROM THE SOUTH SUCKED,AND THEY DID. DOES THAT MEAN THAT ALL PEOPLE FROM SOUTH ARE IDIOTS OR CRAPPY WORKERS? NO IT DOESNT. ALL CONTRACTS FROM TOP TO BOTTOM NEED TO BE REVAMPED. THE WORKERS ONLY MAKE AN AVG. OF $25hr. THAT AINT CHIT. DOES A TOP EXEC NEED THE SALARY OF WHAT 500 LINE WORKERS MAKE A YEAR? I GUESS IF THE PROFFITS R THERE ITS OK. CUT BACKS R NEEDED EVERY WHERE. THE QUALITY OF THE PRODUCT IS THERE. WHEN I WAS WORKING NON-UNION I REMEMBER THAT I HAD TO TAKE MANY MORE RISKS AND PUT MYSELF IN DANGER (WHAT EVER IT TOOK TO GET THE JOB DONE) SOME OF MY FRIENDS OWN NON-UNION SHOPS CHARGE WITH IN $10hr WHAT WE CHARGE. THE GC WHO I WORK W/ PRESENTLY HAS JOBS ALL OVER THE STATES AND TELLS ME BY TIME THE JOB IS DONE OUR JOBS R DONE SAFER,QUICKER AND W/PRIDE AND QUALITY......BAIL OUT THE WHITE COLLAR GUYS BUT NOT THE BLUE COLLAR TRASH SEEMS TO BE SOME OF YOUR VIEWS? ITS ALL OUR FAULTS FOR LETTING THEM SEND ALOT OF THE UAW WORK OVER THE BORDERS. PROB SAVED THE CAR COMPANYS BILLIONS. WHERE DID ALL THE BILLIONS GO? OH YEH ,THE EXECS POCKETS.....SO ARE THE UAW GUYS TO BLAME? TO A POINT YES! I WOULD DEF. SAY THAT 75% OF THE COMPANIES PROBLEMS COME FROME UPPER MANAG. AND CORP. WASTE. I THINK WE NEED TO HOLD ALL ACOUNTABLE FOR R COUNTRIES MESS. ALL THE MONEY THAT IT SAVED BUY SENDING JOBS OVER SEAS GOES TO ???????????OH YEAH, THE TOP EXECS. SO DOES CUTTING THE BENEFITS OF THE WORKER HELP THE COMPANY(IT SHOULD)NO IT SEEMS TO GO TO BONUSES! RICH GET RICHER. EVERYONE SHOULD WORK FOR THERE SHARE AND I KNOW WE ALL CANT BE WEALTHY BUT WE ALL DESERVE A GOOD BUCK FOR A GOOD DAYS WORK!!GOOD PAY FOR A JOB WELL DONE.(I GUESS GW WOULD OWE)

BRING R JOBS BACK HOME
PUT HIGHER TAXES ON IMPORTS/X4 FOR CHINA
MAKE EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THERE ACTIONS
STOP FINGER POINTING
CLOSE THE BOARDERS 4 AWHILE
MAKE PEOPLE WHO R ON WELFARE DO SOMETHING FOR THE $$$
EYE FOR AN EYE
PENALIZE BUISS. THAT HIRE ILLEGALZ
LET ME KEEP MY GUNS
LET ME CHOOSE MY OWN BELIEFS
FLAT TAX 20% ,NO RITE-OFFS
TAKE PRIDE IN ALL YOU DO.
SOUNDS PRETTY E-Z. NOW IF THE LEFT AND RITE COULD MEET IN THE MIDDLE MAYBE SOMETHING WOULD GET DONE...............YEAH RITE..

[392cobra]

I may be an old fart but certainly not in the least bitter.

You're the one yelling,no one else is.

[sparks]

Not Bitter ,just Tired Off All The Bs...give Bo A Chance,after All He Cant Do Much Worse Than Da Bush's?i Hope.

[Great Asp]

I say no (or a Jamo NFW)

But anyone saying no needs to look in your garage and see if you have a Big 3 auto, or did you justify a brand X foreign car or truck purchase? Cause you voted YES with your purchase.

Flame away!

E

Sparks, please no more caps

[sparks]

I aM thInKinG of TaKinG a TypYIng aNd SpeLEnG claS

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by sparks

I aM thInKinG of TaKinG a TypYIng aNd SpeLEnG claS

LOL,.....funny