Should the US bailout the big three automakers?

[Keithc8]

I want to say something else about this pay thing. If I had to pay my guys 30.00 an hour with some of these ridiculous benefits I would not be able to sell any of you people an engine because they would be to high. I would go out of business because I would not sell anything.
I have to buy things in quanity, work extra hours and try to keep over head down to sell what we do. My guys make 15.00 to 20.00 and hour and I bet no one here wants to pay me more for engines so that I can pay my guys more money. I pay their health insurance, 2 weeks vacation, 5 holiday days, retirement package along with a Credit Union memebrship as well as workman comp, un-employment taxes and match the required 8 percent on FICA. I am lucky to clear 10 percent when all said and done and this is with me working about 12 hours a day now.
My point is that you all may not get to live like you want at 15.00 to 20.00 an hour but it can be done in the right places with both husband and wife working which is what my wife and I do. Like I said if I had to pay half what the UAW guys get I would sell very few engines that is for sure. I feel that my guys have to know more than most of them for sure. I also believe that the bonus packages to executives and other is out of hand because I sure can not give myself a big huge bonus each year. Maybe that is what I need to do and then ask for a bail out. It is way over my head that is for sure.

[Keithc8]

I charge the least amount of money for the qaulity of engines that we do than anyone else out there. I work a lot more hours than most people to have these things and saved for a long time to get them. I am also not asking for a government bail out to save my business now am I.

[sparks]

Well said Keith. I do see your point....and I guess a discount aint gonna happen on my next FE is it. Maybe I shouldnt get so pissy when unions r mentioned because my union and the uaw are nothing alike, except I have made some great money rebuilding a chrys. plant by my house. And that if the uaw falls so r alot of wages going to around the country.

[Keithc8]

I want to also say that I do not want to come down on the UAW employees themselves so hard but the guys running the union and making all of the money of these guys. These union bosses are the ones that have made this a bad deal. The Big Three could still pay their workers close to what they get now after union dues and fees and still save a fortune. Do away with the unions and pay the workers a good wage and health benifits without the union getting there cuts. Way to many people getting paid for nothing. I think they can do something that will work for everybody and they better or none of them will have a job. That is just how stuborn and stupid some of these people can be.
I just had to lay of 2 guys and I have never had to lay of anyone before. That was very hard for me becaue I feel a responsability to them and their families when I hire them to keep them employeed but just had to do it right now. I may have to lay of some more before it is done. This has made it harder on me because I am in the shop working more now than in the past but you have to do what you have to do.
I am in Houston, TX right now with my family seeing a customer with an engine problem. I came down with another engine and helped change it out and get it going to make sure everything was ok. These are the things that I do for my customers to make sure they are happy. I did not want to even try to fix the engine in the car because it only had about 400 miles on it and had a smoking problem so I just installed another new engine and I will see what happened to this one. It will be easier to check out back at the shop. I need to know if it was a bad part or something so that it does not happen again. I did not want to drive 400 miles and spend my weekend doing this but this is what you do when you own a business.
I hope we can all get through this bad time in our country because I have three children to get through college yet. It seems that I will be working for a while and may be back in the trailer before it is over. Good luck to all

[Anthony]

It cracks me up to watch news bits of US congress/senators grilling the big three CEO's about how bad they ran/managed their companies, getting into the financial mess they are in, when in fact, our politicians have performed a poorer performence managing the US economy, causing the 700 billion, more like multiple trillion finance crisis that we are in. Every time I see a politician on TV makes me want to throw up.

I say let GM fail, go bankrupt, and let the UAW and their members use their own funds, retirement funds, to purchase GM, and then run it more efficiently than the current management, so they can get even a higher wage with better benefits. No brainer.

[sparks]

Keith I can really understand and respect your point of view(and agree w/ alot of it), but I just get alittle pissed at some of these guys who sit behind there desks all day and really have no idea what its like to break there backs for a living. And at the same time they think they deserve there big salaries. I'm sure that if new wave of execs,docs,lawyers etc. decided to start charging half the going rates for the same quality of work they wouldnt be to happy. Just my $65 hr. opinion........

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sparks

), but I just get alittle pissed at some of these guys who sit behind there desks all day and really have no idea what its like to break there backs for a living. And at the same time they think they deserve there big salaries. I'm sure that if new wave of execs,docs,lawyers etc. decided to start charging half the going rates for the same quality of work they wouldnt be to happy. Just my $65 hr. opinion........

Just for your info, Unlike execs and lawyers, the good ole US gov sets reimbursement rates for doctors. Doctors can charge anything they like, but doctor's only get what the US gov and insurance companies think they deserve, actually much less than half of what they charge. I think it's time we need the same system in place for lawyers.

For a doctor to take home $150K a year after expenses, at $40 per office visit, he has to see alot of patients. Not exactly sitting behind a desk doing nothing.

[Jamo]

Anthony...your commentary about lawyers for the past several years indicates one or a few must've handed you your ass in some litigation or matter. For your info, private lawyers have their rates set when working for government agencies (states, counties, cities, schools, agencies, criminal defense, etc.), just like doctors being reimbursed by medicare.

Sparks, you make some damn good points, but you need to remember that many professionals (doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.) work for companies, firms or public institutions and are suffering from layoffs, cuts in hours and loss of benefits like any production line employee...but they rarely have unions arguing they should be guaranteed 80-90% of their pay while on layoff. You can certainly remark about them making comparatively more money, but then you likely don't care that they were going to school and taking out education loans they are still paying off decades later while other folks were having a good time in their 20s. Everyone has their own perspective in that regard.

In any event, everyone stay on track with the automotive industry in this thread...no arguments or it will be enforced without further notice. Thanks.

[Ron61]

This is the latest I have seen, posted this morning. No Mention of Ford in the first paragraph or so about saving GM and Chrysler.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...4B50CL20081206

Ron

[sparks]

Jamo, while you guys were off @ school some of us guys were out @ bars and such staying out till all hours of the nite, putting our bodies threw HELL trying to find a woman that makes 6 figures to support us. Do you know how tramatic it is to wake up next to someone that scares the hell outta ya. That gets costly and risky! Do you realize how many clams I had to eat before I found one w/a pearl in it ?I will be good now and I appologize if i offended anyone or at least some of you.

[Jamo]

Nothing worse than a bad clam.

[gsharapa]

The only reason Ford is even participating is to save GM. The supplier base is shared by all three and Ford could make it if Chysler went down but not GM. It just amazes me how everone including the media, groups the three companies as one. People need to do a litte research before they start shooting off their mouth. Ford has done a major turnaround and was profitable the 1st quarter of 2008 before the idots on wall street created the credit crunch and speculation on oil that took it out the roof. Forecast now is oil will be $ 20.00 a barrel with gas of $ 1.20 a gallon by 2009. Ford's quality is equal too and now starting to surpass Toyota and leaving Honda in the dust. They have more vehicles in the top safety picks and many vehicles in the top 20 to mid 30 mpg range. The company and Union have negotiated major consessions and can be proud of what they have done. Ford also has$ 18 billion in cash with access to another $ 11 billion. If Ford made one mistake it's they haven't told their turnaound story enough but will clearly come out the winners in this deal. [b]If you haven't driven a Ford lately[/B].......try one, especially the new crossovers and F150. Toyota's truck can't even be compared to the Ford. Chapter 11 is not an option as the media continues to misrep the true facts and any one of the car companies know if they get into a bankrupt situation that the public will completely avoid purchasing any of their vehicles for fear of declining residual value, no warranty or parts for their vehicles. "Wake up America!!!!"

[sparks]

The quality is there for sure but, I was looking at a gt500 awhile back and the orange in my fridge had a nicer finish than the paint job on the 500. And they were all like that.

[392cobra]

Gary,
You being an employee of Ford won't bias your opinion any would it ?

[gsharapa]

Seen a lot happen over 30 years and the general public just doesn't understand the impact of the US auto industy has on the overall economy. We're about the only nation in the world where the government doesn't assist the auto industry. Ever wonder why Ford, GM, Chrysler don't sell vehicles in Japan? After the government tariffs kick in our vehicles are 30K more expensive as they protect their own. Just remember what the auto industry did for the country during WWII. After 911 they contributed large amounts of funds and vehicles. What did Toyota and the rest do? Not a dam thing.........

Even Toyota is getting hit in this credit crunch as they closed heir truck plant in San Antonio for 4 months and they also were recently down graded in credit status.

If the speculators didn't push oil up to $ 150.00 a barrel and the wall street crooks and congress didn't create this mortgage/credit mess........even GM and Chrylser would be coming back fine.

Yes I work for Ford Motor Company and proud of it!!!!!

[sparks]

After reading alot of posts and actually learning a thing or to I thought you mite be curious to see what a SKILLED union trades benefit package looks like.
Hourly wage 35.25
vacation 11% 3.88
Health&welfare 23.83% 8.40*******WTF
pension 17% 6.00
annuity 6.23
N.B.E.F .3% 1.o6
S.U.B fund .20
Total payroll package $61.02hr.
Deductions
working dues 2.25% of gross Plus $70 a qtr.

political education fund .05 per hr.

I think this is very fair. How these uaw guys think that they cant give up some major things is beyond my comprehension. If you were to take say $10-15 off the hourly rate and give it to the uaw guys that would bring them very close to the jap co"s. And they would still have a great deal !!!!!!!

Now take 20% off the rest of the big 3 office help and no bonuses etc untill the co. becomes truely prof. and all debt is paid off and they SHOULD be in good shape no???
And by the way , If I dont do a good job,blow off work,dont produce what is excpected of me I get laidoff, and dont collect any pay which is fair(except my unemploymant )

[Smokingcobra2]

Now if you where a UAW worker and got laid off you would get 80% of your pay for 5
years. NOT BAD and they wonder why they are gong broke!!!
Unless each company gets a loan payment book like i do when i buy a car NO MONEY!!
joeg

[sparks]

Dont no 4 sure if thats a fact or not but that is a little recockulous. Or getting a huge bonus or stock option aint to shaby either!

[Jamo]

Absolutely true...been part of the contract for quite some time, which is why the Big 3 can't justify mechanization or efficiency moves. They are barred from saving money.

UAW leader told Congress this last week they were willing to "talk" about the layoff pay.

[sparks]

I knew i got in the wrong trade. DAM!