Give me a break...

[427 S/O]

Much toxic waste in Parma?.

[Wes Tausend]

...

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

Actually, UAW workers earn $75 an hour in wages and benefits--almost triple the earnings of the average private sector worker. Detroit autoworkers have substantially more health, retirement, and paid time off benefits than most Americans...

...This amount is triple the earnings of the typical worker in the private sector and $25 to $30 an hour more than American workers at Japanese auto plants. The average unionized worker at the Big Three earns over $130,000 a year in wages and benefits.

Most of the Big Three's UAW workers' compensation comes as benefits, not cash...
...Health care costs are the most expensive benefit, accounting for over a quarter of total compensation.

Health care costs the Big Three so much because the UAW negotiated gold-plated health benefits....

These gold-plated health care benefits put the Big Three, and especially GM, at a competitive disadvantage... ...The UAW's lavish health benefits added $1,200 to the cost of each vehicle produced in the United States.

The Japanese automakers, by contrast, provide standard health benefits to their American employees. Consequently, health care for active workers cost Toyota $215 per vehicle in 2006.

UAW employees also receive...

Same as the typical American worker? I don't think so......

Don't where you got your data CDC, but some of it seems true. I find it hard to believe that actual labor costs are anywhere near $75/hr. More like $28/hr and about $10/hr benefits. It would be nice to see an accurate breakdown of it. I think oft quoted health care costs are overblown for one thing. Somebody in the upper tiers makes their insurance buddies a sweetheart deal for a cut of the "premiums" action. No way should a corporation pay more insurance per capita than an individual would.

Check out this link to a club post:
Now here is a surprise.... . I don't know where Cobrabill got the info. In Cobrabill's post it quotes UAW President Ron Gettelfinger as saying that UAW labor makes up 8 to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle. This isn't much.

Something is cockeyed here. If labor gets $75/hr then the corporation theoretically gets $750/hr for each employee. That is much.
So lets use 10% for labor. If UAW works for half price or 50%, it would only lower per vehicle cost 5 percent, or $5 per $100. If whoever is raking in the other 90% gives up only 10%, it would lower vehicle cost by 9%, lowering per vehicle cost by $9 per $100. Nearly twice the price break. Granted some of the 90% is legit overhead ...but not the majority of it.

I don't think 10% labor cost is high. I think 90% other costs are outrageous, and apparently so does UAW. What a shame. I don't think we should lower UAW labor wages. We should strive to bring all other working class wages up to their level whenever market permits, even if we have to give the 90 percenters a "lower". Fair is fair.

Same as the typical American worker? It should be.

Running out of time here. Somebody has to work, eh?

Wes


...

[cobra de capell]

The source: http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2135.cfm

Graphs, etc included on source page. Also noted is some movement to cut down the cost of wages/benefits.

Blue Collar work is simply not worth $76 per hour (wages and benefits) and if that happens other than in the auto industry, more jobs and production of 'everything' will go to foreign countries.

I'll be out $80,000 if GM goes down, but they should go down with the opportunity to draw up a viable business plan and to hire workers at a competitive salary with competitive benefits. Unions are greedy bastards.

[bdeutsch]

First, I am no expert on manufacturing automobiles. But, the first time the Big 3 spoke with the House panel, there was a macroeconomist who was invited to sit with them. I honestly do not recall seeing him after the first session.

During the discussion, he was asked bluntly whether he thought it was a good idea to float the Big 3 a loan to keep them alive. To answer that question, he produced a chart that compared the relative cost of manufacturing a car at each of the Big 3 compared to the cost of manufacturing a like unit at American Honda, Toyota, etc. Of the Big 3, only one (honestly do not remember if it was Ford or Chrysler) was competitive with the Honda or Toyota benchmark. I do remember however, that the two who were not competitive, were not competitive by a very large margin. GM being the most inefficient of the two by a very large margin. He replied that until all of the Big 3 are able to at least match the cost of the benchmarks, that in his opinion, a loan was a bad idea.

While we can sit here forever and debate who is entitled to what and argue whether it is labor or management that is the problem and as heartless as this sounds, it all comes back to unit costs. If you are a commodity, and your unit cost is higher than your competitors, unless there is some kind of a perceived value that justifies the higher cost (which is difficult if your product is perceived as a commodity), you are more than likely headed towards some serious problems.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

...



Don't where you got your data CDC, but some of it seems true. I find it hard to believe that actual labor costs are anywhere near $75/hr. More like $28/hr and about $10/hr benefits. It would be nice to see an accurate breakdown of it. I think oft quoted health care costs are overblown for one thing. Somebody in the upper tiers makes their insurance buddies a sweetheart deal for a cut of the "premiums" action. No way should a corporation pay more insurance per capita than an individual would.

Check out this link to a club post:
Now here is a surprise.... . I don't know where Cobrabill got the info. In Cobrabill's post it quotes UAW President Ron Gettelfinger as saying that UAW labor makes up 8 to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle. This isn't much.

Something is cockeyed here. If labor gets $75/hr then the corporation theoretically gets $750/hr for each employee. That is much.
So lets use 10% for labor. If UAW works for half price or 50%, it would only lower per vehicle cost 5 percent, or $5 per $100. If whoever is raking in the other 90% gives up only 10%, it would lower vehicle cost by 9%, lowering per vehicle cost by $9 per $100. Nearly twice the price break. Granted some of the 90% is legit overhead ...but not the majority of it.

I don't think 10% labor cost is high. I think 90% other costs are outrageous, and apparently so does UAW. What a shame. I don't think we should lower UAW labor wages. We should strive to bring all other working class wages up to their level whenever market permits, even if we have to give the 90 percenters a "lower". Fair is fair.

Same as the typical American worker? It should be.

Running out of time here. Somebody has to work, eh?

Wes


...

Could have sworn somebody suggesting you read the contract.

You're throwing your opinions out that everyone is inflating figures, and then you ask everyone for the source of their info.

Where's yours?

Why do you believe the union President's figure of 10%? What's his source?

Move everyone else up to UAW numbers? Typical union mindset...which is why membership has decreased by 60% in major industries and why this country has lost manufacturing jobs to other countries.

And unions will continue to play that song as the ship sinks like the quartet on the Titanic.

[mdmull]

Gettelfinger today, in listing some of the "givebacks" actually said that one of them was allowing non UAW cleaning crews to sweep up!!!!!. It's not only the cost of labor per hour, but the work rules. On journalist that has reported on the auto industry for 20 years showed a copy of the "master contract" - OVER 100 PAGES.

[J. T. Toad]

Jamo.

Heat up.



IMHO, this dog and pony show eventually will implode....

how does a company ask for a handout as it expanded 9K jobs in Camacari Brazil with a plant of grandiose 1.2 billion price tag?

http://www.automotivedigest.com/view...ticlesID=22935

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189



it just doesn't add up.

[J. T. Toad]

here is a laughable (which doesn't mean funny) quote off of UAW

http://www.uaw.org/auto/12_02_08auto1.cfm

"The $73 an hour figure is outdated and inaccurate. It includes not only the costs of health care, pensions, and other compensation for current workers, but also the costs of the pensions and health care benefits of retired employees spread out over the active workers. Active workers never receive any of this compensation in any form, so it is not accurate to describe it as part of their "earnings.""

IOW, linguistically and logically, $73 is what they are making so that they can cover the ponzi scheme retirement plan or rather "non-active worker". So it probably is more like 80-90 an hour.

http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2135.cfm

This reminds me of the evangelist Benny Hinn (start emotional screaming preacher enthusiasm here)who..... hmmmm. by thee GRACE of gaw-duh, he takes nuttin', not a diemmmah, from the churchhhha! Onleee thee ministry to providuh by your donations.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1471...-tv-evangelist

"The evangelist is presented as having an opulent lifestyle that included a $3 million home with his wife and children, staying in five star hotels and a leased personal jet.

Hinn said the ministry paid nothing for his home or car and reported that his income is from his salary, which he noted is between US$500,000 and US$1 million annually, and from the sale of book royalties."


I digress.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

The source: http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2135.cfm

Graphs, etc included on source page. Also noted is some movement to cut down the cost of wages/benefits.

Blue Collar work is simply not worth $76 per hour (wages and benefits) and if that happens other than in the auto industry, more jobs and production of 'everything' will go to foreign countries.

I'll be out $80,000 if GM goes down, but they should go down with the opportunity to draw up a viable business plan and to hire workers at a competitive salary with competitive benefits. Unions are greedy bastards.

I can't sleep. I'll try to stay awake tonite behind the throttle anyway. Waa.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Foundation .

The Heritage Foundation is an American conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C.

The foundation took a leading role in the conservative movement during the presidency of Ronald Reagan, whose policies drew significantly from Heritage's policy study Mandate for Leadership...

I think your source may be a bit biased and I will go so far as to suggest The Heritage Foundation exists solely to disseminate false corporate propoganda so that large segments of the population swallow the BS. Just like they did the Trickle Down deregulation theory that has self-imploded. While I appreciate the link, I simply can't rationally believe it. The $76/hr sounds inflated, meant to inflame public indignation. But I don't have time for a more rational link just now. Sorry.

Let me re-direct something for a bit. Will the next bailout be the oil companies?

Think of the huge drop in profits that has just occurred. So far, it is the quietest major crisis I have ever heard. It makes me suspicious.

So I surmise that the huge drop was just speculators getting out of the loop and oil companies are still viable.

And that is the problem with the auto industry and just about anything else mega-corpororate. NOT THE WORKERS. My belief is that too many people have been helping themselves to a huge slice of the pie but only a diminishing amount of working class is picking any berries for it. I'm starting to take a dimmer view of the inherent stability of the entire stock market principle. The last thing I would ever do is to blame the workers, the guys doing all the berry picking.

I hope you made your $80K by actually working a lot of overtime ...back when overtime pay wasn't banished by GW several years ago, by the way.
There is no free lunch, not really, except for the guy pocketing your overtime.
Either way, I hope you get your $80K back. Unions are greedy bastards. But you sound very altruistic.

Wes

================================================== ========

Originally Posted by JAMO

Bravo to the Senate Republicans. Complete and utter kool-aide intoxicated BS to cry for the UAW...

Have any of you apologists for the auto workers actually read their contract? I have...read every damn one of them for the past several decades when they are negotiated since they may set the tone for contracts throughout the country.

But they don't...know why? Because the UAW member is NOT the typical American worker. He or she is overpaid for few skills in performing work now involving robots...they are paid for what they used to do....

Hey, not all Republican senators are anti-American, Labor that is.

Read their contract?
Heck if I got paid as much as you do to merely read, I'd be glad to read and even comprehend it (100+ pages?).

Overpaid for few skills in performing work now involving robots?
Shoot, I bet you make more money now than you did before most of your work was done by computer ...by your secretary to boot. OK, maybe you are different than your cohorts. For the record, my job (driving giant conveyer belt) can and will be pretty much more efficiently replaced by computer, as will logical procedure jobs like accountants, doctors ,other lawyers etc.

Originally Posted by JAMO

Could have sworn somebody suggesting you read the contract.

You're throwing your opinions out that everyone is inflating figures, and then you ask everyone for the source of their info.

Where's yours?

Why do you believe the union President's figure of 10%? What's his source?

Move everyone else up to UAW numbers? Typical union mindset...which is why membership has decreased by 60% in major industries and why this country has lost manufacturing jobs to other countries.

And unions will continue to play that song as the ship sinks like the quartet on the Titanic. .

Read the contract?
OK, send me the "reading" money.

Where's yours? (source)
My source was Cobrabill and I think he got it from a news release quoting Ron Gettelfinger, but I'm not sure. Nobody is ever sure anymore these days. Life was so simple in the 50's and 60's. 10 percent? Well haven't seen any other conflicting figure anyway. I'll need a generous consulting fee if I have to prove it beyond all doubt.

Move everyone else up to UAW numbers? Typical union mindset.
OK move them up to the income level of Lawyers and Plumbers. The last plumber I listened to was worried about making over $250/year. Wasn't worried about his employees taxes though. I suppose he expects them to make somewhat less. What do you make/yr, anyway?

I guess ...just maybe ...people who live in glass houses can throw stones.

Wes


...

[Jamo]

Wes

Damn your stubburn intellect! What do I make? I do ok...I charge a piece-rate by the word when I read it...double if I write it. I belong to a union...the BAR Association.

[PANAVIA]

on the KFC link, the jokes just keep on rolling.

KFC has fatty breasts and thighs.
hormone injected young chickens.
all their chicks are euthanize-able.

[Don]

Source: Detroit Free Press:

Comparison of automakers' labor costs:

ASSOCIATED PRESS • DECEMBER 12, 2008
Hourly wages and labor costs at factories owned by the Detroit Three came under scrutiny this week when senators questioned whether the struggling trio's union contracts make them uncompetitive with foreign automakers that have U.S. factories.

Automaker, Hourly wages, Total costs
General Motors Corp.
$29.78
$69

Ford Motor Co.
$29.00
$71

Chrysler LLC
$30.00
$74

Toyota Motor Corp.
$30.00-x
$48

Nissan Motor Co.
$25.00-x
NA

Honda Motor Co.
$27.62-x
$47

x-Nissan and Toyota hourly wage rates do not include profit sharing. Honda includes profit sharing but not attendance bonus. Toyota figure is at older factories with older work forces.

Source: Automakers, Center for Automotive Research. Figures can vary by factory.


http://www.freep.com/article/2008121...ESS01/81212117

[jmimac351]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

Move everyone else up to UAW numbers? Typical union mindset.
OK move them up to the income level of Lawyers and Plumbers. The last plumber I listened to was worried about making over $250/year. Wasn't worried about his employees taxes though. I suppose he expects them to make somewhat less. What do you make/yr, anyway?

I guess ...just maybe ...people who live in glass houses can throw stones.

Wes
...

This class warfare mindset is why we will have a Socialist president. Normally I would say you make what you earn but the unions have bastardized that value relationship - and now the chickens are coming home to roost... check that, the government is going to continue the unsustainable relationship for a bit. Wes, there are two potential outcomes 1) future union retirees will feel even worse pain, or 2) we become a socialist state.

Either way, after reading this article below I don't particularly care what you or the rest of your union buddies think you "deserve".

We have a nation full of whiners.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121104080.html

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

The Heritage Foundation is an American conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C.

The foundation took a leading role in the conservative movement during the presidency of Ronald Reagan, whose policies drew significantly from Heritage's policy study Mandate for Leadership...

I think your source may be a bit biased and I will go so far as to suggest The Heritage Foundation exists solely to disseminate false corporate propoganda so that large segments of the population swallow the BS. Just like they did the Trickle Down deregulation theory that has self-imploded. While I appreciate the link, I simply can't rationally believe it. The $76/hr sounds inflated, meant to inflame public indignation. But I don't have time for a more rational link just now. Sorry.

I hope you made your $80K by actually working a lot of overtime ...back when overtime pay wasn't banished by GW several years ago, by the way.
There is no free lunch, not really, except for the guy pocketing your overtime.
Either way, I hope you get your $80K back. Unions are greedy bastards. But you sound very altruistic.

Wes

...

Altruistic? I've not been cited as being altruistic until now. Actually, the word is 'realistic' in that I thought in 2002 that GM was too big to fail. It was an investment and, no - I've not been paid for overtime for 25 years.

Here's the bottomline - UAW workers are entitled to whatever they can negotiate as are all American workers, but bailing out the company given the wage/benefit structure, along with other factors, with public funds is way over the top.

As for The Heritage Foundation - it presents the conservative point of point which may appear to be biased but in this case is a statement of fact as cited by others above. The UWA wage/benefit structure is what it is.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by nevermind65

Wow...I guess I'm different than everybody on here. I didn't buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler for the last 20 years because they were mostly ugly P.O.S. with some serious quality issues and I didn't want some oversized SUV. It had nothing to do with some guy on the assembly line who really has no say in any of these matters and who is supposedly making too much money.

Here I though my reason was why the automakers were in such financial troubles.

I own a 2500 HD Diesel (that I have towed 16,000 pounds with, try that with a Jap POS), a Jeep wrangler (6 years old and nothing has broken), a 1983 Dodge D150 work truck (still going strong), a 1949 Cady (also still going strong), and a 1997 Harley Davidson (not an American car, but still an American product). All of the above vehicles have been great. I think a lot of people think of a mid 70's quality vehicle when they think of American, but most of the new vehicles are very good.

[SPF2245]

Being a tax paying citizen of this country, I do not want one cent of my money and don't want a legacy debt for my children to pay because of bad management, poor contracts and the general unwillingness of the B3 to correct their mistakes (too many to list in one rant). As for the UAW, screw them, they're ship is sinking and rather then try and help fix the problem...they just want someone else to keep their boat afloat (read the US tax payer). Sorry, your business failed, join the millions of other poorly run businesses that have also got flushed with no one crying for handouts but attacked the problem with fresh ideas. They're not completely to blame for the problems facing the B3, but their lack of help in cutting the costs and long history of causing business headaches for companies should lead to the UAW demise. There is my rant.

[turnpike boy]

It would seem that the biggest problem the Big 3 have, is an absence of a product the majority want to buy.

Can't pay for much of anything without an income. Also leads to going broke.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

It would seem that the biggest problem the Big 3 have, is an absence of a product the majority want to buy.

Can't pay for much of anything without an income. Also leads to going broke.

+1

All the argument about the internal plumbing and who makes how much doesn't matter. What matters is what turnpike boy said and one other point - In addition to making a lot of what people don't want to buy these guys loose money while the the other manufacturers don't. After selling essentially the same number of cars as Toyota during the same time window, GM succeeded in loosing $35MM while Toyota made $17MM! Ahem!

Who knows loosing money might even be associated with building stuff no one wants (ya think!). Bottom line is most Americans don't care why, we just want them to fix the result - don't really care how they do it as long as it's not with our tax dollars. If it takes BK, then hot damn lets git it on but lets also stop all the whining and sniveling. You made your current bed - now you got to sleep in it.

Make the next one better!

Ed

p.s. Attaboys to the Republicans who shot this turkey down.

p.p.s When you get in your car to go anywhere tomorrow check out the first ten cars you see and count how many are domestic. If you think ten is not enough count a bigger number. Now what's wrong with this picture?

edit was for spelling arghhh

[Bill Bess]

For me it's very simple, The Big Three have built great cars, that cost too much money do to added options we don't need, dealers that charge too much (rip you off) for service, and have given the unions way too much power, benefits and money.

Too bad for them, their stupidity and greed, it's a shame the employees are losing their jobs....but they need to get real.
No bail outs for them please.
Bill

[fastraxsg]

So did anyone poll the union workers to see if they thought their top dog really represented them this week? Would they have said, take the money and let's keep working? Did anyone in the UAW offer to work for a buck next year? Did anyone ever see any transparent figures on what the top folks at UAW make and if they pay union dues? How much of a union worker's salary goes to his union dues and does he have a choice to be in or out of the union( I thought choice was still an American freedom or was that unionized along the way). Is a closed shop an American tradition? Time for the UAW to live up to what their real original purpose was and that didn't have anything to do with making cats fat at the top or hijacking American manufacturing.