Give me a break...

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by VRM

Wes,
I'm actually interested in reading the contract. The UAW seems to post highlights, and not the actual contract. There is one part that I found that says:

"The proposed agreement maintains the Independence Day week shutdown at GM. During the week of the Independence Day holiday, seniority UAW workers will receive four days (32 hours) off at their regular rate of pay, including shift and seven-day operation premiums. Eligibility is unchanged from the 2003-2007 agreement.
Over the term of the proposed agreement, the 32 hours of shutdown pay are worth an average of $950 each year for a typical GM assembler."

This breaks down to a little under $30 per hour 'for a typical GM assembler'. Perhaps they have other job categories that I am not aware of, perhaps they have a handful of members that make $300 per hour - I don't trust the UAW to freely provide any information that is going to make them look bad to the public.

Jamo,
You have my attention. I enjoy history (I think you know that); I'm familiar with Hitler and the attitudes of American businessmen of the day.

I saw the line in that first contract forbidding union recruiting on company grounds - when/how did it become all union - they don't have a choice if they want to work in a union plant, right? A friend of mine at NET was a union worker, but refused to go on strike during the big one in '89 or so. She still had to pay union dues afterwards, but she said she no longer had union protection.

Steve

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Steve,

As you know, there are many ways to make over and above hourly wages in unions. Benefits are one. Normally many are penalty claims, originally designed to encourage agreed-upon reasonable working conditions by the only method corporate understands ...the bottom line. So penalties are both abused by employees with phony claims and abused by corporate that just flat out refuses to pay legitimate claims. Philosophically, I don't see a good guy-bad guy scenario. A little human greed perhaps.

It's a contract cluster for me, especially after 100+ years of railroad re-writes. Normally the union spins average earnings minimal (only 10%) and corporate spins them exaggerate(say $76/hr). I will say corporate have had much better press releases at contract time ...management isn't as dumb as we know it is. First press opinions are lasting ones.

Don't the public deserve the truth?? As Clint Eastwood said to Gene Hackman in UNFORGIVEN, "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it".

In the past, I've pointed out that just about every organization is a union of sorts, with it's own aspect of corruption. Labor union, corporate union, Bar Association union etc and even government itself is a union, the Citizens Union. Everybody's a socialist when it behooves them. And I will submit that any form of democratic government at all ...is socialism itself.

And then there are the unions within unions, sometimes just a political party. As any special interest, such as any "union" gains power, power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. Balance is an elusive quality and corruption on a siver platter.

So I feel the greatest threat to America now is corporate union. Years of Big Business lobbying congress to pass favorable "union contract" conditions.

If Barry Goldwater, aka Mr. Conservative, were alive today, he would now be fighting the military industrial complex and all corporate power abuse. He would be fighting the extreme power of Big Business, that which he once loved when the britches still fit. Labor has been relatively beaten.

Fear the growing military industrial complex threat, that Ike warned us about after he saw the vast power of corporate America win wars.
Not that I'm not grateful to corporate America for allowing me to read this forum in English.
I just want them to tone it down a bit before somebody rolls up my sidewalks and ships them to China.

Wes


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[Jamo]

I wished judges would allow briefs with citations to Wikipedia. I'd love to condense my 50-page monsters down to a paragraph or two.

The MPPAA amended the greater body of law known as ERISA, and included the provisions about full funding upon partial or full withdrawals based upon acturial assumptions that were not founded on reality. In any event...

You're assuming the PBGC is funded by taxpayer dollars, which it only partially is. The vast majority of it's emergency "pot" comes from fees charged to employers with existing defined benefit plans, as well as funding payments due to partial or full withdrawals from a defined pension plan, said payments based on the presumption (generally speaking for our purposes here) that everyone vested in the plan just up and decided to retire all at once, regardless of age. In other words...the PBGC attempts to maintain an overfunded status in case the money is ever needed to cover a defined benefit plan which is underfunded, a rare occurance these days, but what the hell...your money's safe with the government isn't it?

The AARP is a politically liberal bunch of old phuks...one reason why I'll never join despite the discounts. They have joined other liberal organizations in sticking their noses in labor disputes which have not a damn thing to do with retirees or benefits...simply due to political coalition building. Had them sign off on a letter listing every wacko group from Greenpeace to the German Green Party to pressure a client of mine to recognize the UFW back in the 90s.

In this case, they have obviously given you a rather tiny little bit of the facts which bear no resemblence to the conclusion they wish you to draw.

The law based on soundbites, if you will.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I wished judges would alloww briefs with citations to Wikipedia. I'd love to condense my 50-page monsters down to a paragraph or two.

I wish the railroad would allow me to run my "giant conveyer belt" from my home computer.
Oh, wait. It's actually listed in my last contract. I'm right behind train dispatchers in seniority to do just that.
Unless the railroad is not a US company at the time. The whole thing might run from New Delhi in that case.
Be careful what you wish for??

Originally Posted by Jamo

You're assuming the PBGC is funded by taxpayer dollars, which it only partially is. The vast majority of it's emergency "pot" comes from fees charged to employers with existing defined benefit plans, as well as funding payments due to partial or full withdrawals from a defined pension plan, said payments based on the presumption (generally speaking for our purposes here) that everyone vested in the plan just up and decided to retire all at once, regardless of age. In other words...the PBGC attempts to maintain an overfunded status in case the money is ever needed to cover a defined benefit plan which is underfunded, a rare occurance these days, but what the hell...your money's safe with the government isn't it?

Yes. Funded by taxpayer dollars. I believe the problem is that when the bankrupt corporation smoothly comes back on line, a new 401K replaces the pension. Sound familiar? So I'll guess they (the new they) don't pay into the fund anymore at that point. A little math, so simple a caveman can understand it, and one can see the coming diminishing club funding along with "join in claims or just pay the premiums for everybody else". Can you say PBGC, bottom line and "corporate backdoor" in the same breath?

Originally Posted by Jamo

The AARP is a politically liberal bunch of old phuks...one reason why I'll never join despite the discounts. They have joined other liberal organizations in sticking their noses in labor disputes which have not a damn thing to do with retirees or benefits...simply due to political coalition building. Had them sign off on a letter listing every wacko group from Greenpeace to the German Green Party to pressure a client of mine to recognize the UFW back in the 90s.

In this case, they have obviously given you a rather tiny little bit of the facts where bear no resemblence to the conclusion they wish you to draw.

The law based on soundbites, if you will.

True. Get a bunch of old folks together that can't take care of themselves, and you get enthusiastic socialism at its finest. Whatever happened to the good old days where they just wandered away from camp and expired alone?

True except when do noses belong in politics? Perhaps when a few boat-rowers and old soldiers, that get pensions, might be concerned about the buck stopping short of here.

I assume most folks 401K is just a green stain on their fingers now. I also assume you have your retirement buried in the back yard instead of being "safely" held for you. I hope its not in coffee cans on those sorry little green pocket contracts. You, if anyone, know what a promise on a piece of paper is worth nowadays.

We live in a system built like a house of cards backed up by soundbites. Always have. I'd say soundbites and lies but that would be redundant.

The AARP discounts aren't that good. Besides, I always lied to the hotel desk until my wife sent my money away. They said, "do you have an AARP discount", and then they made it come true, so I feel it wasn't really a lie. Now I'm forced to read the evil propoganda in order to get my moneys worth.

Wes


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[Jamo]

Wes...I wasn't suggesting that taxpayers only partially fund the PBGC and that the majority comes from fees paid by involuntarily participating employers as well as through the withdrawal payments...I was telling you. That's how it works. Employers have to pay an amount to get out of their defined benefit plan...a current amount which, when amortized, fully funds the future obligations. This is the withdrawal liability brought on by the MPPAA. They don't get to just walk away. In the rare instances when a company goes under, the pension obligations are right behind taxes and wages in BK priority. That's what the emergency PBGC fund is for if no money is left.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes...I wasn't suggesting that taxpayers only partially fund the PBGC and that the majority comes from fees paid by involuntarily participating employers as well as through the withdrawal payments...I was telling you. That's how it works. Employers have to pay an amount to get out of their defined benefit plan...a current amount which, when amortized, fully funds the future obligations. This is the withdrawal liability brought on by the MPPAA. They don't get to just walk away. In the rare instances when a company goes under, the pension obligations are right behind taxes and wages in BK priority. That's what the emergency PBGC fund is for if no money is left.

Ok, thanks Jamo. And I assume there is no easy way for an accountant to chronically engineer an empty corporate coffer forcing the emergency PBGC fund to kick in to its eventual demise as suggested by AARP.

When I had a small home sub-contracting company, I think that I was due to be paid just about last. A home builder that quietly defaulted on construction loans due to market, allowed the bank to get theirs before little guys like me saw a nickel. I never lost enough this way to make pursuit worthy, so I don't know what a good lawyer could have done barring immediate timely filings after-the-fact on my part.

It was my understanding that a shrewd and prompt mechanics lien would lock my claim prior to bank foreclosure. After 30+ years, I'm a little vague on all of this, of course.

I did lock some known pending disasters by lien but always hated to do such because of severe wet-blanket public-image repercussions on an otherwise possible successful home sale where we all got our money.

Wes


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[Jamo]

Boy Wes, you always go for the black helicopter explanation first, eh?

The answer is no...in fact, he!! no.

Geez...I tried to be clear as beans here...first the company would have to go through a BK and receivorship (ie., numerous independent audits by the court and creditors) and still not have enough in assets to cover the withdrawal liabilities before the PBGC kicks in...and then the PBGC goes through the whole exercise again.

Note that ERISA is part of the IRS code, with all IRS enforcement abilities.

Don't read ERISA...please. Me thinks you wouldn't believe it anyway. He!!, I still don't.