Give me a break...

[Wes Tausend]

...

Rant on.

I see the bailout for the auto industry fell flat. But.

It looks like some a-hole members of congress are trying to blame loyal American labor again.

The bottom 16 percent of the collective wealth have to furnish all the manpower and also concede - yet again?

Give me a break.

So Labor makes up a paltry 10-15 percent of the cost of autos and this is where the deepest cuts have to be made? The American workers have already gone backwards for the last 20 years. American Honda and American Toyota workers wouldn't even get close to their wages if it weren't for UAW standards. Try more like wages at McDonalds. The elite upper 20 percent crust in this country has a lot of crust.

We have to "take care of business" because it generates jobs? Business investment owners NEVER generate jobs - they fill, or un-fill, voids in consumer demand to their benefit. Consumer demand from mostly the vast working class. Well thanks to gross mismanagement, the American working class soon won't be so vast anymore. Unless there is a huge move to citizen oversight (read government regulation). We apparently can't trust SOME business owners to do anything but fill their own pockets and now they are ruining it for everyone.

First of all, the American worker is all of us. There is no significant difference between UAW workers and any of the rest of us blue-collar workers. We are not bad guys. We work hard. The same fine people that work in America are the same people that brought home the Gold from the Chinese Olympics.

The American worker is the same American soldier ready to give his life as a warrior in Iraq and come home to what - some corporate manuver to outwit Labor and "re-structure" major industries to a new low "world standard" labor cost - if any job at all. Any body who disputes this is anti-American - period. Invest in China if you like. You can live there too. Don't expect us blue collar guys to protect you. We will be here defending our own soil.

It's the rowboat scenario again. The guys rowing get 10-15 percent of what they generate and all the blisters. The rest of the wealth goes to the lazy guy at the tiller calling cadence with the bulk going to the boat owner. Well I guess boat ownership is more expensive than I thought. I once heard that a boat, is a hole in the water, into which the owner throws money.

Rant off.

Wes


...

[427 S/O]

Wes, as I understand, the UAW is giving up nothing else?. Two findings that surprised me most, if a plant is closed, workers receive same salary for 'four' years unless their called back!, if their laid off they get 80% for a period of time. I guess their health insurance continues as well?. Your correct, many owe what they have to unions but, it just seems like what they got was never enough?.

[trularin]

What is not known by many is that the UAW already agreed to cut pay by a large amount a few years ago.

Days of the $30.00 per hour line worker are gone. Even skilled trades have been hit.

It is my understanding that many are upset with the top heavy executive structure that is not reducing their pay or benifits.

I have been wondering what the 15 billion was going to be used for. All the yards are full. I drove past Pontiac Truck and the lots are full. Making more is out of the question. So what are they going to do? Wait for people to have money to buy a vehicle?

JMHO

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by trularin

What is not known by many is that the UAW already agreed to cut pay by a large amount a few years ago.

Days of the $30.00 per hour line worker are gone. Even skilled trades have been hit.

I saw an interview with two workers a couple weeks ago and they said they were currently making 68k a year. They said this was a drop in pay from the early 90's because of overtime cuts, but 68K for a person that works on a line? That's crazy IMO. The UAW needs to give some things up or the American companies will never be able to compete.

[427 S/O]

Exactly!, I don't believe they'll start up the lines when the money is deposited?, folks are simply not buying right now!.

[Ron61]

One of the best Ford Dealerships around here is going through a type of Chapter 11 now. Red Bluff Ford is trying to work it so they don't have to lay off any workers but according to the owner they have 400 new units on the lot and have to get that down to 200. How I don't know as they aren't selling. The other Ford Dealership I have been watching is corning which a lot of people go to and I haven't seen them issue any statements yet. Everyone avoids the Redding Dealership as they have been so overpriced the last 10 years and the service is so bad I don't know how they stay in business even in good times.

The big Cadillac and Jeep dealer in Redding shut down last week and has moved to a small place out near the airport and they are just going to handle jeeps from now on.The Pontiac dealer took over the Cadillac for now but no one has taken the other brand that dealer handled.

And then the great story of the 3 girls in Anderson that got fired from KFC yesterday. They took a bath in the big sink that they use to pre clean all of their stuff and one of them was so dumb she took pictures and posted them on her spot at My Space. Now all of the customers that bought food there that day are upset.

Ron

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Ron61

And then the great story of the 3 girls in Anderson that got fired from KFC yesterday. They took a bath in the big sink that they use to pre clean all of their stuff and one of them was so dumb she took pictures and posted them on her spot at My Space. Now all of the customers that bought food there that day are upset.

Ron

1. Were they naked?
2. Were they cute?

[VRM]

http://www.redding.com/photos/galler...splish-splash/

Cool!

[bdeutsch]

I was talking to a peer today who lives outside of London and we started talking about the current situation with the Big 3.

He drew comparisons to the circumstance that led to the decline and ultimate break-up of British Leyland; non-competitive manufacturing cost structure driven by strong unions that resisted real change, entrenched executives that felt the government owed them survival, etc.

At the end of the day, BL was broken up and the UK is now essentially a service based economy with historic British brands, Jaguar, Land Rover, etc., now owned by non-british companies. Unions are done too for the most part.

While it is perhaps not a 1:1 comparison with the current conditions facing the Big 3, it is close enough to wonder if we will be facing the same end game.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by VRM

1. Were they naked?
2. Were they cute?

Ahh, that would be a NO! X 2

Dan

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by Dan40

Ahh, that would be a NO! X 2

Dan

Were they stupid? That would be a YES X 3.

[nevermind65]

Come on...you know this scenario. The American worker does not have a right to make a decent living. Granted, there are a few things the UAW could easily cut to help the situation (the job bank), but certain of our Senators want them to take a huge pay cut to match their Japanese counterparts.

I know a LOT of workers at the Japanese owned facilities in Ohio (second tier). Some of the highest paid workers only make $16.00 and couldn't even come close to buying one of the cars they make parts for.

Cars aren't selling, and cutting the wages to those that buy them isn't going to help the situation anymore. Fact is, the big 3 need good managers. Something they seem to have been lacking for quite a few years.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

...

First of all, the American worker is all of us. There is no significant difference between UAW workers and any of the rest of us blue-collar workers. We are not bad guys. We work hard. The same fine people that work in America are the same people that brought home the Gold from the Chinese Olympics.

...

Actually, UAW workers earn $75 an hour in wages and benefits--almost triple the earnings of the average private sector worker. Detroit autoworkers have substantially more health, retirement, and paid time off benefits than most Americans. These benefits, and a JOBS bank that pays UAW workers nearly full wages to not work, have been a major force driving the Detroit automakers' current fiscal woes. Consequently, Congress should not force all Americans to pay for high wages and benefits for UAW workers.

The average private sector worker earned $25.36 an hour in 2006--$17.91 an hour in cash wages and $7.45 an hour in benefits such as pensions, paid time off, and health insurance.

The typical UAW worker at the Big Three earned between $71 and $76 an hour in 2006. This amount is triple the earnings of the typical worker in the private sector and $25 to $30 an hour more than American workers at Japanese auto plants. The average unionized worker at the Big Three earns over $130,000 a year in wages and benefits.

Most of the Big Three's UAW workers' compensation comes as benefits, not cash. Only 38 percent of the $75.81 an hour that Chrysler's UAW workers earned came as base wages. The rest came as benefits (though some of those benefits, such as overtime premiums and paid vacation days, are paid in cash). Health care costs are the most expensive benefit, accounting for over a quarter of total compensation.

Health care costs the Big Three so much because the UAW negotiated gold-plated health benefits that include medical, hospital, surgical, and prescription drug coverage. These benefits also cover durable medical equipment (e.g., hearing aids), dental benefits, and even Lasik eye surgery. For all this, GM workers and retirees must pay monthly premiums of $10 for an individual and $21 for families. As a result, UAW workers and retirees have some of the most comprehensive and least expensive health care in America.

These gold-plated health care benefits put the Big Three, and especially GM, at a competitive disadvantage. For example, GM has three times as many retirees as active workers, and health care costs for both groups cost the company $4.6 billion in 2007. The UAW's lavish health benefits added $1,200 to the cost of each vehicle produced in the United States.

The Japanese automakers, by contrast, provide standard health benefits to their American employees. Consequently, health care for active workers cost Toyota $215 per vehicle in 2006.

UAW employees also receive the following extraordinary provisions:

30-and-Out contracts. UAW employees work under a 30-and-Out contract that allows them to retire with generous pension benefits after 30 years on the job, irrespective of age.

Seven weeks' vacation. A Chrysler worker with 15 years' tenure was entitled to 34.5 paid holidays and vacation days in 2006--seven weeks in paid time off. This is three weeks more paid vacation than the average private sector worker with similar tenure.

Paid not to work. Under UAW contracts, workers whom the automakers let go when plants close are not laid off. Instead, after exhausting regular unemployment payments from the automakers and the government, they are transferred to a JOBS bank where they are paid nearly full wages to not work.

Same as the typical American worker? I don't think so......

[Tinker51]

Sorry to say but the best thing that can happen to the big three is Chapter 11 re-org. Nullify all contracts and renegotiate with realistic compensation and benefits. The UAW needs to accept the fact that they can either work for less or not work. Those are the two choices. Unions need to go.

[Wes Tausend]

...

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

Actually, UAW workers earn $75 an hour in wages and benefits--almost triple the earnings of the average private sector worker. Detroit autoworkers have substantially more health, retirement, and paid time off benefits than most Americans...

...This amount is triple the earnings of the typical worker in the private sector and $25 to $30 an hour more than American workers at Japanese auto plants. The average unionized worker at the Big Three earns over $130,000 a year in wages and benefits.

Most of the Big Three's UAW workers' compensation comes as benefits, not cash...
...Health care costs are the most expensive benefit, accounting for over a quarter of total compensation.

Health care costs the Big Three so much because the UAW negotiated gold-plated health benefits....

These gold-plated health care benefits put the Big Three, and especially GM, at a competitive disadvantage... ...The UAW's lavish health benefits added $1,200 to the cost of each vehicle produced in the United States.

The Japanese automakers, by contrast, provide standard health benefits to their American employees. Consequently, health care for active workers cost Toyota $215 per vehicle in 2006.

UAW employees also receive...

Same as the typical American worker? I don't think so......

Don't where you got your data CDC, but some of it seems true. I find it hard to believe that actual labor costs are anywhere near $75/hr. More like $28/hr and about $10/hr benefits. It would be nice to see an accurate breakdown of it. I think oft quoted health care costs are overblown for one thing. Somebody in the upper tiers makes their insurance buddies a sweetheart deal for a cut of the "premiums" action. No way should a corporation pay more insurance per capita than an individual would.

Check out this link to a club post:
Now here is a surprise.... . I don't know where Cobrabill got the info. In Cobrabill's post it quotes UAW President Ron Gettelfinger as saying that UAW labor makes up 8 to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle. This isn't much.

Something is cockeyed here. If labor gets $75/hr then the corporation theoretically gets $750/hr for each employee. That is much.
So lets use 10% for labor. If UAW works for half price or 50%, it would only lower per vehicle cost 5 percent, or $5 per $100. If whoever is raking in the other 90% gives up only 10%, it would lower vehicle cost by 9%, lowering per vehicle cost by $9 per $100. Nearly twice the price break. Granted some of the 90% is legit overhead ...but not the majority of it.

I don't think 10% labor cost is high. I think 90% other costs are outrageous, and apparently so does UAW. What a shame. I don't think we should lower UAW labor wages. We should strive to bring all other working class wages up to their level whenever market permits, even if we have to give the 90 percenters a "lower". Fair is fair.

Same as the typical American worker? It should be.

Running out of time here. Somebody has to work, eh?

Wes


...

[cobra de capell]

The source: http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2135.cfm

Graphs, etc included on source page. Also noted is some movement to cut down the cost of wages/benefits.

Blue Collar work is simply not worth $76 per hour (wages and benefits) and if that happens other than in the auto industry, more jobs and production of 'everything' will go to foreign countries.

I'll be out $80,000 if GM goes down, but they should go down with the opportunity to draw up a viable business plan and to hire workers at a competitive salary with competitive benefits. Unions are greedy bastards.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

The source: http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2135.cfm

Graphs, etc included on source page. Also noted is some movement to cut down the cost of wages/benefits.

Blue Collar work is simply not worth $76 per hour (wages and benefits) and if that happens other than in the auto industry, more jobs and production of 'everything' will go to foreign countries.

I'll be out $80,000 if GM goes down, but they should go down with the opportunity to draw up a viable business plan and to hire workers at a competitive salary with competitive benefits. Unions are greedy bastards.

I can't sleep. I'll try to stay awake tonite behind the throttle anyway. Waa.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Foundation .

The Heritage Foundation is an American conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C.

The foundation took a leading role in the conservative movement during the presidency of Ronald Reagan, whose policies drew significantly from Heritage's policy study Mandate for Leadership...

I think your source may be a bit biased and I will go so far as to suggest The Heritage Foundation exists solely to disseminate false corporate propoganda so that large segments of the population swallow the BS. Just like they did the Trickle Down deregulation theory that has self-imploded. While I appreciate the link, I simply can't rationally believe it. The $76/hr sounds inflated, meant to inflame public indignation. But I don't have time for a more rational link just now. Sorry.

Let me re-direct something for a bit. Will the next bailout be the oil companies?

Think of the huge drop in profits that has just occurred. So far, it is the quietest major crisis I have ever heard. It makes me suspicious.

So I surmise that the huge drop was just speculators getting out of the loop and oil companies are still viable.

And that is the problem with the auto industry and just about anything else mega-corpororate. NOT THE WORKERS. My belief is that too many people have been helping themselves to a huge slice of the pie but only a diminishing amount of working class is picking any berries for it. I'm starting to take a dimmer view of the inherent stability of the entire stock market principle. The last thing I would ever do is to blame the workers, the guys doing all the berry picking.

I hope you made your $80K by actually working a lot of overtime ...back when overtime pay wasn't banished by GW several years ago, by the way.
There is no free lunch, not really, except for the guy pocketing your overtime.
Either way, I hope you get your $80K back. Unions are greedy bastards. But you sound very altruistic.

Wes

================================================== ========

Originally Posted by JAMO

Bravo to the Senate Republicans. Complete and utter kool-aide intoxicated BS to cry for the UAW...

Have any of you apologists for the auto workers actually read their contract? I have...read every damn one of them for the past several decades when they are negotiated since they may set the tone for contracts throughout the country.

But they don't...know why? Because the UAW member is NOT the typical American worker. He or she is overpaid for few skills in performing work now involving robots...they are paid for what they used to do....

Hey, not all Republican senators are anti-American, Labor that is.

Read their contract?
Heck if I got paid as much as you do to merely read, I'd be glad to read and even comprehend it (100+ pages?).

Overpaid for few skills in performing work now involving robots?
Shoot, I bet you make more money now than you did before most of your work was done by computer ...by your secretary to boot. OK, maybe you are different than your cohorts. For the record, my job (driving giant conveyer belt) can and will be pretty much more efficiently replaced by computer, as will logical procedure jobs like accountants, doctors ,other lawyers etc.

Originally Posted by JAMO

Could have sworn somebody suggesting you read the contract.

You're throwing your opinions out that everyone is inflating figures, and then you ask everyone for the source of their info.

Where's yours?

Why do you believe the union President's figure of 10%? What's his source?

Move everyone else up to UAW numbers? Typical union mindset...which is why membership has decreased by 60% in major industries and why this country has lost manufacturing jobs to other countries.

And unions will continue to play that song as the ship sinks like the quartet on the Titanic. .

Read the contract?
OK, send me the "reading" money.

Where's yours? (source)
My source was Cobrabill and I think he got it from a news release quoting Ron Gettelfinger, but I'm not sure. Nobody is ever sure anymore these days. Life was so simple in the 50's and 60's. 10 percent? Well haven't seen any other conflicting figure anyway. I'll need a generous consulting fee if I have to prove it beyond all doubt.

Move everyone else up to UAW numbers? Typical union mindset.
OK move them up to the income level of Lawyers and Plumbers. The last plumber I listened to was worried about making over $250/year. Wasn't worried about his employees taxes though. I suppose he expects them to make somewhat less. What do you make/yr, anyway?

I guess ...just maybe ...people who live in glass houses can throw stones.

Wes


...

[jmimac351]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

Move everyone else up to UAW numbers? Typical union mindset.
OK move them up to the income level of Lawyers and Plumbers. The last plumber I listened to was worried about making over $250/year. Wasn't worried about his employees taxes though. I suppose he expects them to make somewhat less. What do you make/yr, anyway?

I guess ...just maybe ...people who live in glass houses can throw stones.

Wes
...

This class warfare mindset is why we will have a Socialist president. Normally I would say you make what you earn but the unions have bastardized that value relationship - and now the chickens are coming home to roost... check that, the government is going to continue the unsustainable relationship for a bit. Wes, there are two potential outcomes 1) future union retirees will feel even worse pain, or 2) we become a socialist state.

Either way, after reading this article below I don't particularly care what you or the rest of your union buddies think you "deserve".

We have a nation full of whiners.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121104080.html

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

The Heritage Foundation is an American conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C.

The foundation took a leading role in the conservative movement during the presidency of Ronald Reagan, whose policies drew significantly from Heritage's policy study Mandate for Leadership...

I think your source may be a bit biased and I will go so far as to suggest The Heritage Foundation exists solely to disseminate false corporate propoganda so that large segments of the population swallow the BS. Just like they did the Trickle Down deregulation theory that has self-imploded. While I appreciate the link, I simply can't rationally believe it. The $76/hr sounds inflated, meant to inflame public indignation. But I don't have time for a more rational link just now. Sorry.

I hope you made your $80K by actually working a lot of overtime ...back when overtime pay wasn't banished by GW several years ago, by the way.
There is no free lunch, not really, except for the guy pocketing your overtime.
Either way, I hope you get your $80K back. Unions are greedy bastards. But you sound very altruistic.

Wes

...

Altruistic? I've not been cited as being altruistic until now. Actually, the word is 'realistic' in that I thought in 2002 that GM was too big to fail. It was an investment and, no - I've not been paid for overtime for 25 years.

Here's the bottomline - UAW workers are entitled to whatever they can negotiate as are all American workers, but bailing out the company given the wage/benefit structure, along with other factors, with public funds is way over the top.

As for The Heritage Foundation - it presents the conservative point of point which may appear to be biased but in this case is a statement of fact as cited by others above. The UWA wage/benefit structure is what it is.

[bdeutsch]

First, I am no expert on manufacturing automobiles. But, the first time the Big 3 spoke with the House panel, there was a macroeconomist who was invited to sit with them. I honestly do not recall seeing him after the first session.

During the discussion, he was asked bluntly whether he thought it was a good idea to float the Big 3 a loan to keep them alive. To answer that question, he produced a chart that compared the relative cost of manufacturing a car at each of the Big 3 compared to the cost of manufacturing a like unit at American Honda, Toyota, etc. Of the Big 3, only one (honestly do not remember if it was Ford or Chrysler) was competitive with the Honda or Toyota benchmark. I do remember however, that the two who were not competitive, were not competitive by a very large margin. GM being the most inefficient of the two by a very large margin. He replied that until all of the Big 3 are able to at least match the cost of the benchmarks, that in his opinion, a loan was a bad idea.

While we can sit here forever and debate who is entitled to what and argue whether it is labor or management that is the problem and as heartless as this sounds, it all comes back to unit costs. If you are a commodity, and your unit cost is higher than your competitors, unless there is some kind of a perceived value that justifies the higher cost (which is difficult if your product is perceived as a commodity), you are more than likely headed towards some serious problems.