Apologists

[BeanCounter]

I sometimes miss the old days of arguing with Steve over his apoligist ways with the Muslims. He must have picked it up when Khan painted his house. This morning things are starting to go the way I predicted. Not one word from the world wide Muslim population about the outrage below. I guess they agree with it. I wonder what the jaziya for Massachusetts Liberals will be? I wonder how safe we will be with nuclear arms in the hands of the extremists?

Speaking before an audience of tens of thousands in the Swat Valley town of Mingora on Sunday, cleric Sufi Muhammed declared democracy and Pakistan's judicial system "un-Islamic."

A Taliban spokesman in Swat went a step further Tuesday, calling anyone opposed to his strict interpretation of Islam a non-Muslim.

"Let the judges and the lawyers go to Islamic university," Muslim Khan said. After "they learn Islamic rules, Islamic regulation, they can continue to work."

The rise of the Taliban in Swat has alarmed and frightened some members of local civil society there.

"This is a time bomb for the country," said Aftab Alam, the head of the lawyers' association in Swat district.

Meanwhile, in another Taliban-run region called Orakzai, details emerged of militants forcing a small community of Sikhs to pay a jaziya, or "minority tax," of 10.5 million rupees (roughly $18,000) earlier this month.


Khan said if his vision of an Islamic society is fulfilled in Pakistan, terror mastermind Osama Bin Laden will be welcome to travel and live openly here. "Sure, he's a Muslim, he can go anywhere," Khan said.

Khan added that he would like to see sharia law implemented beyond Pakistan, even in America, a country he knows intimately. For four years, the Taliban spokesman lived in the United States, working as a painter near Boston, Massachusetts.

[FWB]

we must just wait for another vlad the impaler to surface. meanwhile don't face the east.

Fred

[VRM]

Hey Bernie - welcome back!

I know it's easier for you to think that all Muslims are Taliban facist nutjobs than to actually realise that the folks fighting against them are also Muslim.

I guess using your logic then all Christians must also be fascist nutjobs because Hitler and the KKK were.

Steve

[FWB]

now now vrm personal attacks aren't nice. try reading history hitler was a socialist. and very anti christian. note socialists are left wingers, hitler was a left winger. just some facts to chew on.

have a nice day

[Jamo]

I think Jackie Chan is on their guest speaker list.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by FWB

now now vrm personal attacks aren't nice. try reading history hitler was a socialist. and very anti christian. note socialists are left wingers, hitler was a left winger. just some facts to chew on.

have a nice day

FWB,
You should try some of Hitlers speeches, or maybe reading Mein Kampf. There are plenty of references with him proclaiming religious affiliation. I'm sure he also hammed it up as some people will say anything to get elected. He used religion as one of the identifiers to unite the group of people he wanted to have in Germany. And the bulk of people who were Nazi officials (and who followed his orders without question) were Christians.

As for him being a socialist - not really. His brand of socialism was for the benefit of the State not the people. Germany had private industry - not exactly a staple of real socialism. He used elements of left wing socialism to achieve right wing stateism.

Steve

[joyridin']

Hitler was a catholic and proclaimed this many times. He even stated he was doing the Lord's work in eliminating the Jews.

[BeanCounter]

Not quite.

Quotes from Hitler himself are hardly trustworthy on anything at all, as he is known to have been a notorious liar. The known facts about Hitler and religion are:

1. He had a Catholic upbringing.

2. When he left home he ceased religious observance.

3. Some of his speeches (and "Mein Kampf") refer to providence, the Creator and so on.

Hitler never specifically named a preferred religion, although he used religious terms when expedient for him to do so. His experiences as a soldier in WW1 brought him to the belief that religions are mainly for the benefit of the religious leaders, such as Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope.

Certainly some of his early actions as German Chancellor speak more about his religious position than any direct profession of faith, such as his sterilization law, the disbandment of the Catholic Youth League(Shirer, The Rise), his agreement with the Vatican to allow the Catholic Church to regulate its own affairs (it is probably worth noting here the low value that Hitler placed on written agreements), pressuring parents to take their children out of religious schools, banning state teachers from taking part in Church-organized voluntary religious classes, banning crucifixes in classrooms, encouraging SS officers and men to leave the Church and the institution of neo-pagan rituals for marriage ceremonies and baptisms in the SS. Hitler remained conscious of the affection for the Church felt in some quarters of Germany, particularly Bavaria.

Hitler's references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an "Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge" (the phrase is Burleigh's own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,

Away with incense and Holy Water,

The Church can go hang for all we care,

The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

(Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung street-fighter murdered by communists and turned into a martyr by propaganda chief Josef Goebbels.)

In addition
The references to a mysterious power above him suggest 'rhetorical Christianity'. Many politicians used to pepper their speeches with occasional references to God - and often this is very unconvincing.

Although Hitler referred to Christ as a 'fighter', this is in line with the view of the 'German Christians' of Christ as a 'warrior' (!). This is completely out of step with Christian teachings. To cap it all, Hitler and his movement proclaimed that 'might is right'. I don't see any case for regarding him as having espoused Christian beliefs. Odd scraps of some vague belief in 'higher forces' is at best residual Christianity - or superstition.

Another view
The exact religion of Hitler, only Hitler will know. As far as his public religion is concerned: " I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2. Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude." One thing was for certain by his own words, that Hitler always spoke of "a God", in many of his speeches and writings.

This comes from wikianswers.

[BeanCounter]

Originally Posted by VRM

FWB,
His brand of socialism was for the benefit of the State not the people.

Right Steve, not at all like the socialism of say Stalin, or Mao, or Castro, or Kim Jong-il,.................... or Massachusetts for that matter.

Hell, even the monastic socialism of the monastary is for the benefit of those who rule. Cite me an example of "good" socialism.

[BeanCounter]

Originally Posted by VRM

Hey Bernie - welcome back!

I know it's easier for you to think that all Muslims are Taliban facist nutjobs than to actually realise that the folks fighting against them are also Muslim.

I guess using your logic then all Christians must also be fascist nutjobs because Hitler and the KKK were.

Steve

Steve,

Let's see .......WWII............Hitler........US against him, currently damned as a Christian country........England, used to be............France, Catholics are Christian the last I heard. Seems like there were a lot of Christians very visibly aligned against him.

Now let's see about our little Swat Muslim friend calling for Sharia world wide, and harboring Osama. Any fatwas denouncing him? Nope. Saudi Arabia? Nope. Iran? Nope. I believe Pakistan signed a truce with him didn't they? So far I haven't heard any cry of BS over what this twit is saying. I'll believe it when I see the same kind of opposition to it that we heard in WWII.

By the way........you still growing that beard?

[petek]

Amazing how swiftly the conversation turned away from a growing danger (the Taliban potentially taking over Pakistan and gaining nuclear weapons) to a dead Nazi.

VRM, how do you view the growing influence of the Taliban in Pakistan?

[imagine2frolic]

Let's see....if Osama is given freedom to be in a place of Muslim law. Then I guess we would know where to drop the biggest bomb wouldn't we?.....i2f

[VRM]

Bernie, lots of good stuff there. I guess we should title your threads - 'When Christians go Bad'

I think there was a lot of self worship with Hitler, but the fact remains that he did use Christianity (and many Christians went along willingly) to further his own goals.

I'm not a fan of socialism. I am really sick of my state supporting yours. Let me know when you are sending my money back to me. Until you do I will just have to assume that you like socialism when it works out well for you - so I guess you have had your beard for a loooong time.

I would have to say that the most practical and 'good' application of socialism I have heard of is the kibbutz, but I would still not want anything to do with it. Using the classic definition of socialism then North Korea does not seem very socialist does it. The average citizen is basically a slave there. Totalitarian dictatorship is a more apt description, and Hitler was well on his way to achieving the same description.

Originally Posted by petek

VRM, how do you view the growing influence of the Taliban in Pakistan?

Pete,
I don't like it at all. I despise the Taliban, but it is also up to the people who live there to earn their own freedom.

We may have to go destroy some nukes, but I would advise against any sort of long term adventure like Iraq.

Steve

[BeanCounter]

Steve,

Well we do agree on one thing, I would also advise against any sort of long term adventure like Iraq. Hah, thought you had me didn't you.

Where we differ is that I had no problem with us going there but we should have destroyed their infrastructure as a warning and then left. Rebuilding **** for them is a waste of time and treasure. Leave them huddled around a camel turd fire roasting lizards for dinner. They're not much of a threat then.

[petek]

Steve, so if the Taliban had nukes, it would be OK to enter Pakistan forcefully, search out, and destroy the nukes?

[427 S/O]

Pete, you can rest assured, the USA has plans to enter Pakistan and take possession of all nukes/data should the Taliban get even remotely close. I'm sure Egypt's help is also part of the plan.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by petek

Steve, so if the Taliban had nukes, it would be OK to enter Pakistan forcefully, search out, and destroy the nukes?

Yes. We are currently at war with the Taliban. If they manage to take over a country I would view it as roughly the same as Germany taking over Belgium. We would not be at war with Belgium, but we may have to destroy Belgian factories, powerplants, and other infrastructure that aids Germany.

We should also make the best effort we can to work with resistance fighters already in Pakistan - the same way we started doing with Afghanistan. Bush started off great, but then lost focus. We cannot afford to make that mistake anymore.

Steve

[petek]

Well, if it happens, there had darn well better be WDM there when Obama orders the troops in! Bush found out what happens if you order troops in and don't find the WDM that were suppose to be there! ;-)

[BeanCounter]

Well gosh, you mean there's something that can destroy more of America than Obama's economic policies? What should be done to him?

[Ron61]

Bernie,

Not more of the country, just faster.

Ron